Phipli
Well-known member
Do you have some photos?
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Updated 2023-07-12: Hello, Guest! Welcome back, and be sure to check out this follow-up post about our outage a week or so ago.
SuperMac Spectrum/24 Project
- Thread starter Trash80toHP_Mini
- Start date
MacOSMonkey
Well-known member
Just look in SuperVideo. The line at the bottom 1/3 of the cdev window should identify the board name and ROM version.
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
Getting to that, my card has been inaccessible since the thread resurfaced. Neighbor's pipes broke in the middle of the night three days ago flooding that corner of my apartment. So everything was moved out and the card's been freed! Everything else about the situation is not good at all and will be holding me up on this.
Not the case, I have the first release manual and Card/ROM. Posted pics of the custom setups chapter upthread, p.2. Can you post a pic of that reference in the later card's manual for me? Everything I've posted has been my take, reading the documentation at face value.
Choosing an existing resolution and changing its parameters to SAVE AS a new setup file would be the first cause of confusion. The second, identified above, would be use of the recreation of a standard resolution as the example. Now that I think of it, that may have been a good plan, if a bit confusing, as the wording in Step_1 is unfortunate. It parses the way I've expressed it above. There should have been a paragraph break for clarity. If we can recreate their stock 1024x768 settings that'll make a good test case I think? Such may have been the reasoning at SuperMac?
Ten years ago only @trag and I were seriously discussion possibilities here in this thread and in the lost, previous thread.
I wound up getting stuck at the translation between the VGA association's terms and SuperMac's input parameter definitions. Front porch, back porch and others are easily identified, others not so much.
This time around we have plenty of interested parties!
I never got into the maths involved for calculation of the required inputs. If an interested spreadsheet jockey wants to help out, setting one up to do the individual calculation steps for inputs would be of great help. Having that ready for when I manage to find the VGA spreadsheet would be great.
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Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
May have been and I missed it?
The paragraph break insertion above removes all confusion about the matter I think? Equivocal source material for comparison:
When we figure out how to create a new resolution/freq the crux of the matter for later Spectrum/24 versions will be where the new config file is saved and whether or not that config can be exported/imported for use in the newer versions? But that's another topic if and when we accomplish something here. So lets not refer to the later release versions from here on?
I'm going to hold off on my impossible dreams of achieving a widescreen resolution that will autoscale to 1080p in favor of the quest of a more conventional resolution as proof of concept: 800x600@60Hz VGA would be a reasonable target I think? It's nothing like early Mac resolutions, having been introduced in the VGA friendly Quadra 630 IIRC?
Get that up and running for steady display on multifreq 4:3 LCDs and we're good to go from there? Other suggestions?
edit: would making a fresh start in a Rev.3 version of my project from this point make sense?
The paragraph break insertion above removes all confusion about the matter I think? Equivocal source material for comparison:
When we figure out how to create a new resolution/freq the crux of the matter for later Spectrum/24 versions will be where the new config file is saved and whether or not that config can be exported/imported for use in the newer versions? But that's another topic if and when we accomplish something here. So lets not refer to the later release versions from here on?
I'm going to hold off on my impossible dreams of achieving a widescreen resolution that will autoscale to 1080p in favor of the quest of a more conventional resolution as proof of concept: 800x600@60Hz VGA would be a reasonable target I think? It's nothing like early Mac resolutions, having been introduced in the VGA friendly Quadra 630 IIRC?
Get that up and running for steady display on multifreq 4:3 LCDs and we're good to go from there? Other suggestions?
edit: would making a fresh start in a Rev.3 version of my project from this point make sense?
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Phipli
Well-known member
It should happily do 1024x768 with out any jiggery pokery.um yeah, if it were somehow possible to do that, I’d be all about it!
I’d rather favor 1024x768 myself
Bolle
Well-known member
My guess is that this indeed only possible on the first revision of cards that still used the TMS34061 video controller. The names of the values that the control panel expects give that away… look up the TI datasheet and it will become clear There’s calculation examples in there as well.
The VIDCLOCK is the clock input to the TMS and is usually is the pixel clock divided by 8, 16 or 32 depending on how the external shift registers and DAC loading mechanisms are set up on a specific card and for specific bit depths.
I don’t know how this is handled on the SuperMac cards so can’t tell what the actual multiplier for the vidclock signal is in regards to the pixel clock.
The horizontal active count it expects then again should be the horizontal total divided by the same number as the pixel clock/vidclock are connected to each other.
It really all makes sense after reading the 34061 datasheet.
I’d be surprised if the later SuperMac cards that were based on custom silicon just implemented a 34061-compatible portion to stay compatible with the old way to generate the video signals… I doubt they do.
There’s calculation examples in there as well.The VIDCLOCK is the clock input to the TMS and is usually is the pixel clock divided by 8, 16 or 32 depending on how the external shift registers and DAC loading mechanisms are set up on a specific card and for specific bit depths.
I don’t know how this is handled on the SuperMac cards so can’t tell what the actual multiplier for the vidclock signal is in regards to the pixel clock.
The horizontal active count it expects then again should be the horizontal total divided by the same number as the pixel clock/vidclock are connected to each other.
It really all makes sense after reading the 34061 datasheet.
I’d be surprised if the later SuperMac cards that were based on custom silicon just implemented a 34061-compatible portion to stay compatible with the old way to generate the video signals… I doubt they do.
MacOSMonkey
Well-known member
Yes - you can decide to use any of the included pre-defined resolutions as the basis for setting up a custom monitor with an alternate timing. The H and V resolutions are just used for timing calculations. I do not think you can explicitly enter HA and VA as a manual resolution. The sRec resolution in the scrolling window at the top is what tells the OS what the base resolution will be. So, you can decide that HA and VA need to match the chosen resolution from the scrolling dialog window, etc. And, further, you can set timing parameters that result in a different visible area than the one you have selected, but if you do that, the OS will still think the resolution is what you selected from the scrolling list and you just won't be able to see all of it.
LaPorta
Well-known member
At 60 Hz as Trash suggested?
MacOSMonkey
Well-known member
The original Spectrum/24 will absolutely do 1024x768 at 60Hz (it's main 19" config), whereas the main config for the Spectrum/24 Series III was 1024x768 at 75Hz (based on related vertical refresh improvements to the 19" Trinitron and Hitachi monitors). It will also do 60Hz. The supported 16" resolution was 832x624 (for Apple and SuperMac 16" monitors), as I mentioned earlier. When the Spectrum/24 PDQ and PDQ+ boards arrived, they were matched with the 21" 1152x870 monitors (and improved cable sense) with a corresponding bump up to a100Mhz oscillator for that config.
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Phipli
Well-known member
1024*768@60hz is a standard setting on the Series III, and from what MacOSMonkey said, everything back to the original Spectrum.
Manual extract from the first page of this thread.
You can just select it. Might be worth reading the PDF I shared a little while ago.
Phipli
Well-known member
Sounds like you have the original card
sadly I don't have one of those. Trash80 shared the manual for your card as a series of images in a post a few days ago if you're interested. It explains how to navigate and retrigger the flashing startup thing as well as the setting in the drivers. On the other hand, the PDF I shared will cover newer versions of the driver.They're excellent cards
should be good for your fx!
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
That doesn't make sense to me unless in terms of setting up a custom, virtual desktop resolution not provided for in the standard pre-sets. If limited in the way you're suggesting I'd call it a non-feature, there'd have been no reason to set it up that way from a marketing perspective. Hardware was using the custom resolution capable logic of the period. I'm thinking marketing and hardware were probably on a different page during development than you were on in a somewhat later time frame? Hoping so anyway!
I have to take a look at the spec sheet of the programmable the TMS34061 video controller. @Bolle, is that the controller you've been playing with in the GS project? Dividers are 8x for one range of clocks and 16x for the higher clocks up to 1-4MHz. No time to look for it during lunch. Have you or anyone got linkage to the TMS34061 documentation?
Proof is in the pudding! I'll try to get the numbers together to set it up for VGA 800x600@60Hz inputs and we'll see what happens. That falls within the scope of the card's RAMDAC limited output on the connector.
I specifically ruled out 1024x768 as it's not a wholly new Custom Resolution for Spectrum/24 test purposes.
MacOSMonkey
Well-known member
I sincerely hope that benevolent video pixies will bless your foray into the deep pixel forest. But, as far as I recall, the video timing the card/controller generates to drive a display is separate from how the card/firmware and the Slot Manager/OS communicate with each other. As you probably know, Slot Manager/OS communication is done via driver/slot calls and the sRecs that define the modes and capabilities that the board supports (and the sizes are pre-defined). SuperVideo lets you enter timing parameters for whatever resolution you choose from the scrolling menu (and does not backward propagate it to alter the resolution). But, I am anxious to see what you find out.
And, to explain my comment about the hypothetically clipped desktop (which would never be used by anyone - it was just an example): if you set a desktop of 1024x768 for the Mac and enter timing (within what the monitor can tolerate and still maintain sync) that extends the blanking areas to be smaller such that the top/left/bottom/right edges are inset, the Mac will think it is showing 1024x768 and the monitor will show a clipped image (subset of 1024x768 timing) that cuts off the desktop. Again, it was just an example to illustrate the difference between video timing and OS desktop size that hoped to explain what would happen if you tried to set up timing for a resolution other than the one you chose for the config. Good luck.
And, to explain my comment about the hypothetically clipped desktop (which would never be used by anyone - it was just an example): if you set a desktop of 1024x768 for the Mac and enter timing (within what the monitor can tolerate and still maintain sync) that extends the blanking areas to be smaller such that the top/left/bottom/right edges are inset, the Mac will think it is showing 1024x768 and the monitor will show a clipped image (subset of 1024x768 timing) that cuts off the desktop. Again, it was just an example to illustrate the difference between video timing and OS desktop size that hoped to explain what would happen if you tried to set up timing for a resolution other than the one you chose for the config. Good luck.
Trash80toHP_Mini
NIGHT STALKER
LOL! Thanks for the sendoff into the wilds of discovery.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? A.E.
Actually, I feel a whole lot better about the prospects here since @Bolle chimed in with info about the programmable video controller used on the Spectrum/24. He's in the process of squeezing the non-standard Compact Mac resolution out of a similar vintage VidCard that's not at all set up for customization.
Printed some of the docs out at work tonight for markup, thanks @Phipli
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? A.E.
Actually, I feel a whole lot better about the prospects here since @Bolle chimed in with info about the programmable video controller used on the Spectrum/24. He's in the process of squeezing the non-standard Compact Mac resolution out of a similar vintage VidCard that's not at all set up for customization.
Printed some of the docs out at work tonight for markup, thanks @Phipli
LaPorta
Well-known member
Yes, I think I definitely do have the original card. ROM 1.0 1989, just as Trash has. If that is the case, I would need to find one of these oscillators for the higher resolutions as per the tables attached, correct? Mine currently Outputs 640x480 to my Apple Color Display.
