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Two Days, Four Meetups, Too Much Macintosh Stuff

bigmessowires

Well-known member
I went on a minor rampage recently, including three different purchases today in three different locations, which I pulled off in only an hour! Total outlay was $220 for everything combined. Now what am I going to do with all this stuff?

The first meet was @jmacz, from whom I bought three non-working systems: a Performa 637CD, a PowerMac 6100/60, and a Performa 405. I won't post photos since these were already discussed in his posts, but after a bit of clean-up they're in pretty nice physical condition inside and out aside from some cracked plastics. I'm optimistic that all three could be restored to working order with a logic board recap and some TLC, but I might actually scavenge some of them for spare parts instead. In particular, the P405 might get a motherboard transplant with a spare LCIII board I've got, and turn into a prize giveaway. I'd like to get the 637CD working if I can, because hey, 33 MHz '040!

The second meet was with a person from NextDoor who'd advertised a working Performa 6214CD system. He turned out to have lots other Mac equipment too, which he threw into the deal. First was the P6214CD itself, which is a 75 MHz PPC 603 with 48 MB of RAM and 1.1 GB hard drive.

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In the peripherals pile were an AEKII keyboard, round-style mouse, and an ADB numeric keypad. Also a box of floppies and three SCSI cables.

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An external SCSI hard drive, not tested yet.

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External SCSI CD-ROM.

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There was also a big box of adapters. Most of them are unknown to me, and have an RJ-11 phone plug on one side, and 9-pin or 25-pin connector on the other side. Anyone know what these are? Some other strange adapters too.

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Hey, a StyleWriter too. I'll look more at this later, but don't have high hopes for getting it working.

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Finally there was a 17” (or maybe 16") E-Machines ColorPage T16 II CRT Monitor. This was the piece I was most excited about, but now that I have it, I already regret it. It is ungodly heavy, I really can't understand how a 17" monitor could weigh so much! By myself I couldn't even begin to lift it, and even with two people it was a challenge to load it in the car. Unloading it at home was even worse, and we actually dropped it once. We barely managed to get it inside and onto the kitchen table, where I expect it will crush the table soon thanks to its immense weight. I think a giant box of rocks would weigh less. No idea yet if it works because I'm not sure how I'll ever get it out of the box.

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Third meetup was somebody from Craigslist selling a 14 inch CRT with VGA input. For $10 how could I say no? It seems to work well enough, but it's not a Trinitron and the focus seems a bit off. There's also some unexpected red fringing in one area, which I'll need to investigate more when I have a working operating system. It's been so long since I used a CRT monitor, I don't remember if this is a normal artifact or a defect.

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Fourth meetup was another person from Craigslist selling a 19-inch 1280x1024 LCD with VGA input, which I thought could make a nice Mac display. Smaller LCDs with 4:3 aspect ratios and VGA inputs are getting pretty rare, and this was the only one I found out of 100 monitors for sale on my local Craigslist. I feel like I need to stockpile them.

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But is it actually 4:3? Dear reader, I was today years old when I realized that 1280x1024 is not the same aspect ratio as 640x480. It's 5:4, and it looks distinctly squarish. It works as a Mac display at 640x480, but it stretches the image to full screen, which results in a non-integer scale factor and a non-uniform aspect ratio, so it looks pretty bad. The left edge of the screen is also slightly cut off. Sadly there don't seem to be ANY image controls on this monitor (ViewSonic VG900b) except for brightness and contast - no way to change the scaling settings or to compensate for the left edge cutoff. I'm disappointed on that.

If any of this interests you, most it will probably end up at Mactoberfest Meetup next month, so you can see it there or win it or buy it.
 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
There was also a big box of adapters. Most of them are unknown to me, and have an RJ-11 phone plug on one side, and 9-pin or 25-pin connector on the other side. Anyone know what these are? Some other strange adapters too.

Those look like router console cable adapters to me or similar, off the top of my head. I've got some very similar ones for Cisco console access and for the console port on my rack PDU.
 

Forrest

Well-known member
Nice finds. I bet the CDROM works fine. Don’t know about the external drive, but if it’s not working you can mount a BlueSCSI or a ZuluSCSI in it.
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
That ADB num pad is nice. I’ve got the same one, it’s got very satisfying cherry mechanical switches in it. Nice little piece of kit! And excellent finds overall too of course.
 

joshc

Well-known member
Nice hauls, I especially approve of the Performa 6x00. :D

Hey, a StyleWriter too. I'll look more at this later, but don't have high hopes for getting it working.
I think a recap sometimes gets them going again, they do suffer from the same fate as the rest of the Apple stuff we're dealing with from that era, leaky electrolytic caps.

Finally there was a 17” (or maybe 16") E-Machines ColorPage T16 II CRT Monitor. This was the piece I was most excited about, but now that I have it, I already regret it. It is ungodly heavy, I really can't understand how a 17" monitor could weigh so much!
This is why I am very hesitant to ever collect any CRTs. The only CRT I have collected in the past few years was an 'Apple Macintosh Color Display' and honestly that was bulky enough for me to not keep it (even had the original box!).

The left edge of the screen is also slightly cut off. Sadly there don't seem to be ANY image controls on this monitor (ViewSonic VG900b) except for brightness and contast - no way to change the scaling settings or to compensate for the left edge cutoff. I'm disappointed on that.
Sadly very few monitors of that time came with image controls. Have you thought about getting an Extron HDMI scaler which would resolve all those issues, and means you could use a much wider variety of monitors?
 

bigmessowires

Well-known member
I was able to access the LCD image settings menu, and correct the cut-off left edge, but there's no way to change the weird scaling when 640x480 at 4:3 is scaled to 1280x1024 at 5:4. Paired with a Mac that can do 1280x1024, this LCD would be nice. For lower-res it's OK but not ideal.

Something curious: both the LCD and the 14-inch CRT work on this LCIII system, but with my Mac IIci I only get a black screen. I wonder why? Wasn't there something about early Mac video modes being 66 Hz while PC monitors were 60 Hz? I wonder if the LCIII supports 60 Hz output but the IIci doesn't, and neither of these displays can handle 66 Hz? I need to research this further... it will be sad if the IIci can't use these displays.

I think a recap sometimes gets them going again, they do suffer from the same fate as the rest of the Apple stuff we're dealing with from that era, leaky electrolytic caps.
For the StyleWriter I'm more wondering about finding replacement ink cartridges rather than leaky caps. Inkjet printers always seem like a hassle to me. I'm happy that my ImageWriter II is working now but I don't think I'll be keeping this StyleWriter, especially if there's no source of ink.
This is why I am very hesitant to ever collect any CRTs. The only CRT I have collected in the past few years was an 'Apple Macintosh Color Display' and honestly that was bulky enough for me to not keep it (even had the original box!).
You are wise. The 14-inch CRT is heavy, but it's about what I expected. This E-Machines monitor theoretically isn't much bigger - seller said it was 17 inch, though the product info says 16 inch - but it feels several times bulkier and heavier. I can't imagine ever wanting something this big on your desk.
Have you thought about getting an Extron HDMI scaler which would resolve all those issues, and means you could use a much wider variety of monitors?
I haven't. Is there a specific model you would recommend? With a quick search, I didn't see any that took VGA input. But I would prefer not to rely on a single (pricey?) piece of video scaling hardware that I could only use with one computer at a time, especially since I prefer an authentic-looking 4:3 display and anything with HMDI input will probably be 16:9. But I don't know much about the topic.
 

bigmessowires

Well-known member
Something curious: both the LCD and the 14-inch CRT work on this LCIII system, but with my Mac IIci I only get a black screen. I wonder why? Wasn't there something about early Mac video modes being 66 Hz while PC monitors were 60 Hz? I wonder if the LCIII supports 60 Hz output but the IIci doesn't, and neither of these displays can handle 66 Hz?
To answer my own question, yes I think this is exactly what's wrong. Time for a NuBus video card for IIci? Or just stick with the Dell (Ultrasharp) I already have, which is happy with the IIci video signal. I think I need a display that supports both sync-on-green and 67 Hz output? Is there a list somewhere? I took a look at a few manuals (including the Viewsonic LCD) and it doesn't include that kind of technical information.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
I'd like to get the 637CD working if I can, because hey, 33 MHz '040!
They overclock to 40MHz easier - 630 family is massively underappreciated. Is that the machine that has two RAM slots that was for sale the other day?

Note the main RAM slot takes 128MB SIMMs. If the second slot is populated, it only takes single rank SIMMs, so 4, 16, 64MB.
19-inch 1280x1024 LCD
ViewSonic made good monitors in that era - my ViewSonic LCD will sink to just about any weird signal and happily works with Sync On Green. It's one of the few screens that will work with a Toby card without needing a ten switch adapter.
Sadly there don't seem to be ANY image controls on this monitor (ViewSonic VG900b) except for brightness and contast - no way to change the scaling settings or to compensate for the left edge cutoff. I'm disappointed on that.
There is, press the 1 button.
was able to access the LCD image settings menu, and correct the cut-off left edge
Ah, you found it. I'm too slow :)
but with my Mac IIci I only get a black screen
Are you using a 10 switch adapter, set to VGA? Different macs do video in different ways. The older you go, the more they want to do weird settings that newer screens aren't happy about. A switch setting that works with one Mac sometimes doesn't work with another.
If VGA settings don't work, try the 13" Apple settings. I suspect one of that Row will work with the ViewSonics.
Mac video modes being 66 Hz
66.7 I think, but yes. Only when set to an apple video mode though.
17 inch, though the product info says 16 inch
16" is the older honest number. Some sellers quoted the tube size not the bezel size and so claimed 17", later this became the norm. Measure the viewable area when the image is set correctly with a black border and even 16" is a lie.
Time for a NuBus video card for IIci?
No need - the IIci is new enough to support the video modes needed, you just need to get the right switch settings on a 10 switch adapter.
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
Yes, Apple way back when would advertise the projected image size instead of the actual glass size (hence Apple’s 12 and 13” monitors). I guess a few others did that as well. Apple eventually capitulated for marketing reasons. Obviously to is moot in the LCD era.
 

dougg3

Well-known member
Something curious: both the LCD and the 14-inch CRT work on this LCIII system, but with my Mac IIci I only get a black screen. I wonder why? Wasn't there something about early Mac video modes being 66 Hz while PC monitors were 60 Hz? I wonder if the LCIII supports 60 Hz output but the IIci doesn't, and neither of these displays can handle 66 Hz? I need to research this further... it will be sad if the IIci can't use these displays.

I use my IIci with a 10-pin Mac-to-VGA adapter. 1-4 or 1-4-6-7 are the magic combinations that work for me. The IIci outputs sync on green which can cause compatibility issues with some monitors though. And yeah, it’s 67 Hz 640x480 with that combination according to the monitor.

Edit: I dunno, everyone online says that the IIci is sync on green, but the developer note sure makes it look like that mode has a separate CSYNC signal instead. Not sure how the adapter deals with it in the different modes. I just know those two settings work for me...
 
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Phipli

Well-known member
dit: I dunno, everyone online says that the IIci is sync on green, but the developer note sure makes it look like that mode has a separate CSYNC signal instead.
I think it depends on what sense wires it detects.

Edit - Nope, you're right, Dev note looks like it does separate sync only.
 
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dougg3

Well-known member
Edit - Nope, you're right, Dev note looks like it does separate sync only.

I wish someone had a schematic of what the 10 DIP switches do. It would be a nice reference for figuring this stuff out. I'm pretty sure switches 1-3 are the sense pins, but I have no idea what the other 7 do.

Although the IIci definitely has the separate sync signal, maybe it also puts out sync on green at the same time or something...

Ahh yes, I think it does. According to the BOMARC schematics, the RGB signals on the video connector are generated from the Bt478 RAMDAC which actually has a public datasheet. The datasheet says it supports putting the sync info on all 3 channels -- and the sync and blanking signals are indeed going into the Bt478, so I think it is.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
1-3 are the sense pins, but I have no idea what the other 7 do
The sense pins aren't just binary, there are also a number of diode arrangements between sense pins in different directions, these are needed for the MultiSync modes. The right few switches set the sync mode. But yeah, not sure what the circuit is.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
Ahh yes, I think it does. According to the BOMARC schematics, the RGB signals on the video connector are generated from the Bt478 RAMDAC which actually has a public datasheet. The datasheet says it supports putting the sync info on all 3 channels -- and the sync and blanking signals are indeed going into the Bt478, so I think it is.
I feel like the Dev notes would mention it if it did though?
 

dougg3

Well-known member
The sense pins aren't just binary, there are also a number of diode arrangements between sense pins in different directions, these are needed for the MultiSync modes
Ahh, got it...so to better word what I originally said, I think switches 1-3 ground the sense pins.

I feel like the Dev notes would mention it if it did though?
Agreed that it's weird they would leave that out (I checked Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware 2nd Edition and it doesn't mention anything about it either), but I'm pretty sure according to the Bt478 datasheet it does. I should check with my scope sometime.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
I don't think I'll be keeping this StyleWriter, especially if there's no source of ink.
It might be possible to drill holes in the cartridges, refill them with modern ink refill, and put a little rubber stopper in the hole.

You will need to soak the heads in IPA though.
 

bigmessowires

Well-known member
Hmm, there are many old threads here discussing IIci internal video, which all seem to agree that it can't output 640x480@60Hz VGA, and many modern monitors won't accept its 640x480@67Hz signal. I'm not sure about the sync on green but that might also be a factor. I'll play around with it some more.

If you need to find a home for the StyleWriter please let me know...it's the last piece I need for my first system recreation.

I'd prefer to find a local home to avoid the hassles of shipping, but if nobody else speaks for it then it's yours.
 
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