Two Days, Four Meetups, Too Much Macintosh Stuff

[Phipli]

but with my Mac IIci I only get a black screen. I wonder why?

I fetched my IIci out.

Set your adapter to 1456. It works on my ViewSonic.

 

[bigmessowires]

ALL HAIL GARGANTUA, KING OF THE CRTS! LOOK UPON MY MASSIVE FRAME AND DESPAIR.

Haha, now that it's out of the box I guess this E-machines CRT isn't really so big, but it sure is heavy.



Unfortunately I didn't have much luck getting it to work how I'd expected. With the Mac-specific video cable connected to the BNC inputs, I couldn't get any image from either the Performa 6214 or the IIci. The monitor also has a VGA input. With my VGA adapter switchbox on the IIci I still had no image, but the VGA adapter on the Performa 6214 worked as pictured. More mysteries.

One drawback of the Performa 6214, when booted without a working monitor: there's apparently no way to turn it off. There is a tiny button on the back panel with a power logo, but pressing and holding the button did nothing. I had to unplug it from the wall.

I'm puzzled why the Mac-specific BNC cable didn't work on either of my Macs. This is a Mac-specific monitor so it should have no trouble with the various sync modes and refresh rates.

 

[bigmessowires]

One drawback of the Performa 6214, when booted without a working monitor: there's apparently no way to turn it off. There is a tiny button on the back panel with a power logo, but pressing and holding the button did nothing.

If the monitor works, then the rear power switch also works to shut down. But if the monitor doesn't work (with the BNC connector) then the rear power switch has no effect. I wonder if the Mac is displaying a dialog that says "you don't have a monitor" and so it can't shut down.

 

[jmacz]

Hmm, there are many old threads here discussing IIci internal video, which all seem to agree that it can't output 640x480@60Hz VGA, and many modern monitors won't accept its 640x480@67Hz signal. I'm not sure about the sync on green but that might also be a factor. I'll play around with it some more.

This is why I have been gobbling up some older LCDs from NEC, Samsung that support 67Hz as well as 1024x768 at both 60Hz and 75Hz native and so I can get 1:1 from the higher end video cards that drive at 1024x768.

I’ve got a Samsung 512N that works awesome, and three NEC 52Vs (one of which has failed though). Also have a DELL (forget the model and can’t check right now) that on paper supports these modes but in reality has been less forgiving… worked with my IIci and LCIII at 640x480 but did not work with a IIsi.

 

[bigmessowires]

Thanks, I'll make a note to search for those monitor models. I already have a Dell 2001FP which works great with all the Macs I've thrown at it (using a VGA adapter), and it also has a composite video input that works with my Apple II systems, even with an Atari 2600. A great monitor for vintage computing.

I'll keep fiddling with switch settings, but unfortunately it looks like the three new monitors I acquired this week are all much more picky, and I haven't been able to get the IIci working with any of them. E-Machines ColorPage T16 II 1108DT16MR 1024x768 multiscan Trinitron CRT, Viewsonic VG900b 1280x1024 LCD, Viewsonic 6 1024x768 CRT.

 

[Phipli]

Thanks, I'll make a note to search for those monitor models. I already have a Dell 2001FP which works great with all the Macs I've thrown at it (using a VGA adapter), and it also has a composite video input that works with my Apple II systems, even with an Atari 2600. A great monitor for vintage computing.

I'll keep fiddling with switch settings, but unfortunately it looks like the three new monitors I acquired this week are all much more picky, and I haven't been able to get the IIci working with any of them. E-Machines ColorPage T16 II 1108DT16MR 1024x768 multiscan Trinitron CRT, Viewsonic VG900b 1280x1024 LCD, Viewsonic 6 1024x768 CRT.

Did you try 1456?

Works for me on my IIci with a ViewSonic LCD.

So did just "14" to be honest.

 

[bigmessowires]

I haven't tried 1456 yet, but I will. Are the numberings standard across different brands of adapter? I didn't think so.

Here's a curious pair of adapters that were included with the P6214 system:




He was using both of them together. The black one is just a DA-15 to HD-15 adapter with no switches, but the gray one is curious. It has a Mac-style DA-15 connector on both ends. I'm not sure how that would have been useful by itself.

 

[LaPorta]

As far as shut down, there’s nothing that “keyboard power button, then return” can’t fix…working monitor or not.

 

[Phipli]

Are the numberings standard across different brands of adapter? I didn't think so.

Sometimes, but not other times. Mine looks like yours and the tables seem to match. Well, I'm intentionally using the one of mine that looks like your 10 switch.

Here's a curious pair of adapters that were included with the P6214 system:

If they are what I think they are, they're useful for forcing a MultiSync monitor to do higher resolutions on a Mac that doesn't support MultiSync. You can set the sense wires to what you want. Usually a MultiSync defaults to 640*480 on a machine that doesn't recognise it.

Useful if you have an Apple 17" Apple MultiSync and connect it to an Apple Display 8•24.

As far as shut down, there’s nothing that “keyboard power button, then return” can’t fix…working monitor or not.

Not supported in 7.1 or older though. At least on my IIci specifically, and IIx.

 

[Arbee]

We had that gray rotary-switch adaptor + black 15-pin to VGA combo at work in 1994 to hook an 8100 up to an SVGA Sony Trinitron. Was a bit temperamental to get set up (the dial is the 3-bit primary sense code, the first 6 dip switches are the extended code so there's plenty of trouble you can get into) but once it was right the image was unbeatable, as you'd expect from a Trinitron.

I believe the intent of the gray part without the VGA adapter was to "dumb down" your monitor to 640x480 for games, although you'd need a multisync monitor for that anyway.

 

[jmacz]

Thanks, I'll make a note to search for those monitor models.

Well wait a bit on the 52V. Just noticed two of them have some identical contrast issue (the gamma seems too high) on my IIci. Need to play with it some more.

 

[volvo242gt]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mac-specific cable is meant to be used with an E-Machines video card, when combined with that monitor. You might have better luck with one of the Sony SE series monitors, where the BNC connectors are usually used with a BNC-VGA video cable, connected to either the Mac-VGA adapter setup you have or a Sony MacView LX adapter.

 

[sfiera]

I wish someone had a schematic of what the 10 DIP switches do. It would be a nice reference for figuring this stuff out. I'm pretty sure switches 1-3 are the sense pins, but I have no idea what the other 7 do.

I have a schematic for a 6-pin adapter available. I think it’s common to have the first 4 pins wire sense pins and ground to each other, and the next 2 wire diodes between sense 1 and 2. Order could differ within each of those groups. The remaining four would be for mapping sync signals, but I’m not sure how.

I’ve thought it might be useful to give the switches letters instead of numbers so it would be possible to talk about configurations in an order-independent way: “For VGA, set switches B and C; this adapter uses order GABCIJ”.

 

[bigmessowires]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mac-specific cable is meant to be used with an E-Machines video card, when combined with that monitor.

I think you may be right. I've had some luck now using the Mac-specific BNC cable with the DA-15 to DA-15 adapter with the rotary wheel (see photo a few posts back). I talked to the original seller and he said that's how he was using it.

All of this DIP switch voodoo is extremely confusing. It's not just a question of the DIP switch settings (and the many different brands of adapters with different switch configurations), but also the specific Mac model or video card and how it will interpret the sense pins and what video modes it's capable of. There's no easy way to debug what's happening either. If you're lucky your monitor might display an error like "signal frequency out of range" to help you, but that's not very common, and it still doesn't tell you much about what's happening on the Macintosh side.

 

[volvo242gt]

I think you may be right. I've had some luck now using the Mac-specific BNC cable with the DA-15 to DA-15 adapter with the rotary wheel (see photo a few posts back). I talked to the original seller and he said that's how he was using it.

All of this DIP switch voodoo is extremely confusing. It's not just a question of the DIP switch settings (and the many different brands of adapters with different switch configurations), but also the specific Mac model or video card and how it will interpret the sense pins and what video modes it's capable of. There's no easy way to debug what's happening either. If you're lucky your monitor might display an error like "signal frequency out of range" to help you, but that's not very common, and it still doesn't tell you much about what's happening on the Macintosh side.

Hmmm, I wonder if that same adapter might help my M1298 monitor work properly with the RasterOps video card in my IIci... Although, that's probably more of an issue of the RasterOps software not being installed on said computer's hard drive. Need to pop the drive out, connect it to the G4, then copy the installer over to it, and reinstall the drive into the ci.

 

[bigmessowires]

Did you try 1456?

Works for me on my IIci with a ViewSonic LCD.

So did just "14" to be honest.

According to the adapter instructions, 14 is 640x480@66Hz with sync on green. 1467 is the same resolution with separate H and V sync. 1456 is the same with composite sync. None of these worked with my IIci and the Viewsonic VG900b. I am wondering if the VG900b simply doesn't support 66 Hz refresh.

I also tried 134 and 13467 which are supposed to be 512x384 and I think 60 Hz, with different sync methods. I read somewhere else that this is the only 60 Hz mode the IIci's built-in video can support. No luck.

I then switched to using a Griffin PnP VGA adapter, whose instructions are shown here: https://www.pccables.com/pdf/MonitorAdapter_MacPnP.pdf At the 567 switch settings for 512x384 it actually sort of worked, but the image was strangely squashed and was all blue. The monitor said it was getting an 1152x870@75Hz signal. I think the IIci thought it was connected to a 640x870 portrait monitor. Strangely enough, 512x384 and 640x870 have the same DIP settings in the PnP manual. This was the first time I got the IIci to display anything at all on this Viewsonic.

At the 68 switch setting for 640x480, I got nothing on the VG900b. This seems to fit with the theory that the VG900b can't handle 640x480@66Hz.

Also tried the Griffin PnP 3468 setting for MultiSync 14", 57 setting for VGA, and 1268 "Auto" setting. Nothing.

I then returned to the Sabre 10-pin adapter. Its 23467 setting for 640x870 with separate sync produced the same weird blue squashed image as the Griffin PnP. At least that's better than no image. 234 setting for 640x870 sync-on-green resulted in no image.

Then I switched to the "wheel" adapter shown earlier. At its O setting for 640x870 I got nothing, which is inconsistent with the other two. The N setting for 512x384 was also no good. Ditto for J and G settings for 640x480 at 66Hz and 60Hz.

My conclusion: the VG900b simply doesn't support any video mode the IIci can generate, and so it's not usable with this computer. Big bummer.

I will try a more exhaustive test with the Viewsonic 6 CRT next.

 

[Phipli]

was all blue

It thinks it is a greyscale monitor - the Apple greyscale monitors used the blue channel.

I will try a more exhaustive test with the Viewsonic 6 CRT next.

CRTs tend to be more compatible. Shame about the ViewSonic LCD, mine has been pretty good with old video signals. It even /tries/ to show a portrait display. In blue as you noticed.

 

[bigmessowires]

Viewsonic 6 testing.

With the wheel adapter: Nothing at its G setting (640x480@60Hz). At J setting (640x480@67Hz) I get a recognizable image, but picture rolls. It obviously does not like the 67 Hz refresh rate, but at least it lets me see what's happening. N setting (512x384) I see a terrible hash of garbage - I don't think it can match the horizontal scan rate. O setting (640x870) I get nothing.

I'm not going to test any of the other adapters here... it seems clear the Viewsonic 6 also doesn't support any IIci video mode.

E-Machines T16 II testing.

With the wheel adapter and the Mac DA-15 to BNC cable: At J setting (640x480@67Hz) I get nothing. This is surprising... I really thought this one would work. This is the plain vanilla Apple 13" color mode, connected to a monitor marketed and sold for Macs and with a Mac DA-15 connector, so how can it not work? G setting (640x480@60Hz) also nothing. N setting (512x384) nothing. O setting (640x870) shows the squashed blue desktop.

With the Griffin PnP adapter and a VGA cable. 1268 "Auto" shows nothing. 567 (640x870) shows the squashed blue desktop. 68 (640x480@67Hz) I get nothing. I stopped there.

TLDR: I have three new monitors here, and it looks like none of them will support anything the IIci can put out. Grrrr. I'm not certain if the issue is the refresh rate or the sync method, but I suspect it's the refresh.

This isn't the end of the world, since I have other Macs I could use with these monitors, and two "works with anything" monitors I can use with the IIci. I'd planned to add some of these to my collection, but since they're less useful to me than the monitors I already have, I should really sell them instead. Disappointing since I just bought them a few days ago.

The main problem (just thinking out loud here) is for the configuration of displays at Mactoberfest if I sell them there. I'd planned to have the monitors for sale connected to one of my demo computers in order to prove that the monitors work. Since the IIci can't be the demo computer for these, I'll need to bring yet another monitor for the IIci demo, and yet another computer to showcase these monitors. Or maybe not use the IIci at all. There's too much to think about and my brain is overheating!

 

[bigmessowires]

There's some interesting technical details about video on page 27 of this developer's note for the IIsi, whose video is pretty similar to the IIci. https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/computing/apple_hardware_devnotes/Mac IIsi.pdf It says that Mac standard 640x480 RGB is 66.67 Hz and uses composite sync. Mac standard 512x384 RGB is 60 Hz and also uses composite sync. Mac portrait mode 640x870 is 75 Hz and uses separate H and V sync. None of them use sync on green.

Portrait mode is the only mode where I got any image at all. So now I'm thinking the stumbling block isn't the 67 Hz refresh rate but the use of composite sync. In fact, the technical specs for Viewsonic VG900b sync input say "H/V Separated (TTL)" with no mention of composite sync support. But another similar Viewsonic model VX1935wm lists "H/V separate (TTL), composite, sync on green". I haven't found any technical information about the Viewsonic 6 CRT or the E-Machines CRT but I suspect it's the same issue.

 

[Phipli]

With the wheel adapter and the Mac DA-15 to BNC cable: At J setting (640x480@67Hz) I get nothing. This is surprising... I really thought this one would work. This is the plain vanilla Apple 13" color mode, connected to a monitor marketed and sold for Macs and with a Mac DA-15 connector, so how can it not work?

Not all monitors support more than one resolution and refresh rate. This might be one of those depending on how old it is.