So what about the famous Apple ][ series?

[Apostrophe]

Hi,

No matter where I look, I keep hearing great things about the Apple ][ series of computers. So what exactly makes them that great? My oldest computer is a Mac SE, so obviously I'm used to the Graphical User Interface. My Dad claims that the Apple ][ was very complicated to use since you had to write your own programs for it.

Right now I'm shooting for a Mac Plus (or earlier compact) on eBay, but in your opinion, would it be worth it to eventually try and get an Apple ][?

Thanks for your opinions,

-Apostrophe

 

[luddite]

Writing your own programs is what makes the Apple II great in my opinion. It's much more of a hobbyist platform than the Mac.

 

[Unknown_K]

I have 3 model IIgs systems, those are the only II's I have and probably the only model I want (turned down a free local II+ a few years back).

 

[II2II]

Luddite is correct, they are much more of a hobbiest system. They are great to program on because they include both BASIC and the mini-assembler, and the limited resources don't offer the compulsion to start grandios projects.

The Apple II, like many early computers, offers direct access to the "copper" (to steal terminology from the Amiga community). That is to say that you can access the raw hardware if you like. Indeed, most programs will manipulate the hardware directly or do it through a single layer of code (i.e. the firmware).

 

[Scott Baret]

As others have said, the Apple II is and always was a hobbyist system. In fact, the Apple II series used to come with a little booklet entitled "A Touch of AppleSoft BASIC" which explained how to write programs for the computer.

Some of its treasures do lie in commercial software. I feel the "must haves" are the original Print Shop, the old version of Oregon Trail (you haven't lived until you've controlled a little man with a rifle using arrow keys during hunting sessions), Fantavision, and, if you can find it, AppleWriter II by Paul Lutus. VisiCalc is also nice to have for its historical significance (I don't have a copy of it so I can't vouch much for it though). If you're into games, Lode Runner is the essential classic (again, I don't own this one and haven't played it since 1992 on a friend's IIGS).

Part of the fun of the Apple II is the card scheme. Macs aren't known for expansion cards (unless you're into the II/IIx/IIfx with six NuBus slots) yet the II, II+, and IIe require them to do much of anything. Later models came with disk drives and ports built in and also included printer ports instead of Super Serial Cards.

Of the ports that are included on the early Apple IIs there is a cassette input/output port (if 5.25" disks feel too modern for you, try using tapes!), a joystick port, and a composite video port (if you don't get an Apple II monitor you can just plug it into your TV).

If you're just starting out with an Apple II I recommend a IIc because of its ports. You won't have to mess with cards yet can get used to the feel of the interface, the style of the programs, and ProDOS. The IIc is also easy to plug into a TV since it's small, has a disk drive built in, and can sit comfortably on your lap as you work in front of a TV. (I recommend a monitor if you can find a good one though).

Once you've gotten used to the IIc I suggest a IIe. This is THE essential Apple II machine, complete with a maddening array of cards. Go for Disk II drives if you can find them for a truly retro feel.

The machines are fairly easy to find on eBay and so is the software, often sold by the bushel. Make sure you buy genuine, legal Apple II software (pirated disks were very common during the Apple II days and still tend to show up on eBay). If you want to use an ImageWriter II, make sure you get the right cable for it (the Super Serial Card uses one connector, the IIc another, and the IIc+/IIGS use the same as the Mac Plus and above).

If you don't want to go on eBay you can check local school surplus and yard sales, but be warned--these machines aren't as commonly found in surplus as they were ten years ago. Some recyclers don't even refurb them anymore and just send them right to the compactor.

I think you'll find working on an Apple II to be quite easy and very enjoyable. My first computing experience came on an Apple IIe on the afternoon of April 16, 1989 and it got me hooked right away.

 

[Charlieman]

Documentation for the II family was incredible. The Red Book told you almost everything about how the computer worked -- the only other thing that you needed was the 6502 manual.

The quality of software tools for hobbyists and developer was also remarkable. Owing to the limited abilities of the processor and compilers, heavy weight applications (including games) had to be written in assembly, but you could write useful stuff for yourself in the two flavours of Basic.

 

[Apostrophe]

Okay, great! Thanks!

I've just been outbid on a Macintosh Plus that I was going for on eBay, so I decided to go for an Apple IIc instead. (I'm still going for a Plus, of course, but I need to wait until I have more money to back me up on that one.)

Apple IIc's sound like great computers, and it's true that they don't go for that much money on eBay.

Thanks for your suggestions,

-Apostrophe

 

[Apostrophe]

Hi,

Okay, I just now bought this Apple IIc on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270330824177

It was listed as 'untested', so I assume that there's still a chance that it works. And if not, I'm sure I won't have any problems fixing it...

Besides, it only cost me $25.00, so I figured that for such a low price, it was worth it to buy an untested 25-year-old computer.

Now I have to focus on getting it a monitor...is it true what I hear about the Apple IIc being able to hook up to a regular TV? I'll eventually get it a monitor, but would it be possible to hook it up to a TV for the time being? (As in, did the Apple IIc plug into TVs 25 years ago as opposed to modern TVs? Or are modern TVs still similar enough to support a computer made a quarter of a century ago?)

Thanks for all your help and suggestions! I'll let you know how it all turns out once I find a monitor (and/or TV) for it!

-Apostrophe

 

[Scott Baret]

All you need to hook it up to a regular TV is a composite video cable (the yellow RCA-type video cable). You probably have one of these laying around somewhere but if you don't you can pick one up for a dollar or two just about anywhere.

 

[stevep]

Do you have a power supply? Looks as if that is not included in the auction.

 

[Apostrophe]

No, I don't have a power supply...

Would I be looking for something like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Apple-IIc-Replacement-MB-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ170280188187QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

So far, I gather that in order to run this Apple IIc, I will need:

-A TV cable (which I no doubt have)

-A power supply (but I'll wait for the actual computer to arrive before I order a power supply)

-Cables running to and from the power supply

Am I right, and is there anything else I need?

-Apostrophe

 

[stevep]

It is a separate large beige part - looks like a brick. You can see one in the picture of this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-IIC-Ext-drive-power-supply-cables-disk_W0QQitemZ320331384883QQihZ011QQcategoryZ80075QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That one you linked to may be the internal part of one but I am not sure.

 

[Dog Cow]

What's great about the Apple II? Everything. Especially if you've got a huge software, hardware, and manual collection (sorry to brag!) at your disposal.

Unlike the modern Mac, or even older Macs, there's nothing "hidden away" You can easily access any memory location, any expansion card, or other device attached. Since it's 8-bit and everything is relatively small, it's easy to understand (reading the Apple Ref Man helps too). Basically, the Apple II is the only computer which I can really understand about how it works down to the lowest level.

One of the projects I did a year ago was stick wires into its game port to control the Apple. And I did the reverse too: I made the Apple toggle a green or red LED depending on what was going on. With this, you can have things like interactive games, robotic arms, switches or relays, and many different input devices. Something you can't do on a Mac or even on a modern computer. http://macgui.com/blogs/?e=250

 

[II2II]

Uh, you can do that sort of interfacing on a PC or a Mac. It just happens to be a little harder. (And, depending upon what you're doing, a lot harder.)

But, on the whole, I agree: it is easier to experiment with and fully understand an 8-bit micro. And yeah, a good part of that probably has to do with these systems being of a relatively simple design. But I think a lot of it has to do with the software too.

 

[Dog Cow]

Uh, you can do that sort of interfacing on a PC or a Mac. It just happens to be a little harder.

Yes, I know that. But you need an interface card and generally some special software. With the Apple, you don't need any of that.

 

[Apostrophe]

Great! Well, I've just received the tracking number from the seller, and it should be here tomorrow or Friday! And the seller mentioned, when I inquired about the power supply, that they haven't found it but were 'looking for it' and that they'll keep me posted. So I hope that they find it...

Just one thing, though...can anyone give me the case dimensions of a IIc? I need to know how much space it'll take up so that I can plan a spot for it accordingly.

Thanks,

-Apostrophe

 

[II2II]

On the interface card and special software bit, it really depends. If you're interfacing to TTL logic, then a parallel port and debug will do the job (and if you don't like debug, one of the variants of BASIC that used to ship with PCs would probably work).

If you want to do A->D then the Apple II wins because of the paddle port and the ease of accessing it. On the other hand, you can do the same with a PC with a sound card (and have D->A to boot). You don't need special add-ons here, at least with modern systems, though the programming tools are more complex.

I wouldn't diss the add-on boards either. Something like an Arduino is pretty simple to use through it's high level interfaces. It offers a number of digital interfaces, an A->D and a pseudo D->A (actually PWM). If you choose to go deeper, you can go deeper too.

 

[Apostrophe]

Okay, I have another question as well. In my last post in this thread before this one, I asked about the case dimensions of the Apple IIc. But now I have another question.

The very first computer I ever used was a Centris 610. (In fact, it's the same one I still have. My sig lists my computers in the order I got them.)

But I never used a compact Mac until Latin class about a year ago, when my teacher had an SE and a Classic in her room, among other vintage Macs. And so, of course, it follows to reason that I've never used an Apple II.

Assuming I have a working Apple IIc, and assuming I have a power supply with it, and a cable hooking it up to my TV...what will happen when I turn the power on? I can gather from browsing this forum that II's need bootable floppies, just like Macs. But is there anything an Apple IIc can do without a floppy disk?

As an extent of that question, where exactly is the OS located? I was first under the impression that an Apple II ran completely off ROM. Is this the case, or is a floppy disk also needed?

In getting an Apple IIc, I am treading in completely unknown waters here. Any additional help and suggestions is greatly appreciated!

-Apostrophe

 

[david__schmidt]

Assuming I have a working Apple IIc, and assuming I have a power supply with it, and a cable hooking it up to my TV...what will happen when I turn the power on?

It will say "Apple IIc" in some form or another at the top of the screen, and try to boot the floppy disk. Finding no disk, it will complain and hang.

I can gather from browsing this forum that II's need bootable floppies, just like Macs.

Yes and no...

But is there anything an Apple IIc can do without a floppy disk?

Yes. You can hit ctrl-reset and get into BASIC stored in ROM. You'll be in the typical interpreted BASIC of the era. No disk I/O will be possible without booting a DOS, but you can type in and run programs. Or, enter the monitor (CALL -151) and poke away at machine language.

As an extent of that question, where exactly is the OS located? I was first under the impression that an Apple II ran completely off ROM. Is this the case, or is a floppy disk also needed?

It starts completely from ROM, yes. It can use bootable disks to pull in other operating systems besides the BASIC interpreter. So, disks aren't "needed," but they are very, very useful.