SE/30 Xceed greyscale adapter cloning thread

[techknight]

Yes I am, but I dont have the time currently to take a project like this on, at the moment. So Bolle is your man. 

Once its in some sort of schematic, and I can look at the PAL equasions, I may be able to figure out how to modify the design to 512x342 that fits the compact mac, as electronics engineering is my day job. 

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Ok, the PDS as far as I am aware has no video signals present.

Video in the diagram is from Mobo To A/B and from there to the a/b switching of the Color30. Only 603-48 to gs neck board is required.

 

[techknight]

Yea, I just saw your diagram. I am just trying to figure out why its this convoluted. 

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

That'd be the Color30 internal/external function while passing through internal when sense pins are detected on the DA-15. 603-48 harness will be more simple. with what Bolle has explained, I can further simplify that diagram.

 

[Bolle]

However, the entire video circuit is sync with the motherboard clock signals, so you can use the clock signal present on the PDS slot as the timing source for both HSYNC and VSYNC. 

The safest way for the analogboard would be to grab sync signals from the logicboard through the wiring harness. You will need to build one anyways if you want to interface to a new CRT neckboard.

@pcamen PM sent.

 

[techknight]

Well I was thinking along the side of driving the analog board from the video card, not sync the video card to the analog board. Seems backwards to me. 

 

[pax]

Just want to say that it's exciting to follow along in this thread. And I'll definitely sign up if it comes to fruition. I'm a software engineer and not a hardware engineer, so I'm not sure that I can contribute with any relevant skills. But I do have a multimonitor SE/30 setup if testing help is required at some point.

 

[maceffects]

@pcamen I am happy to make use of some of my contacts in China to have the PCB reverse engineered and have a sample board made.  However, my skills of soldering and modifying things are very limited.  Plus, I would like to finish the SE/30>LC PDS project first.  @Bolle @Trash80toHP_Mini since we have the gate chip and the diagram whats holding us up from making a prototype of that?  I have someone who can do the actual CAD work I just need to tell them what to do.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I've got time coming up very soon for the LC NIC project. ;-)

Other than various power and ground lines. AFAIK these are the only active connections on the proposed 306-48  GS Clone harness if we follow the Color30/less external display function model in this clone development thread..

 

[pcamen]

Just want to say that it's exciting to follow along in this thread. And I'll definitely sign up if it comes to fruition. I'm a software engineer and not a hardware engineer, so I'm not sure that I can contribute with any relevant skills. But I do have a multimonitor SE/30 setup if testing help is required at some point.

What card are you using out of curiosity?

I am happy to make use of some of my contacts in China to have the PCB reverse engineered and have a sample board made.  However, my skills of soldering and modifying things are very limited. 

Thanks.  Given that we are not exactly reverse engineering it but rather using it as a model for designing a new internal only greyscale adapter, we probably don't need that at the moment. However, perhaps when the time comes you can help getting the resultant board manufactured in China in sufficient quantities.

But your offer makes me wonder though, could the Chinese simply clone the Xceed card verbatim?  Is that even possible?

Another question for all the have contributed to this thread so far is, what about drivers?  Will this be able to use just the standard Micron driver that the 308-48 uses? 

 

[maceffects]

What card are you using out of curiosity?

Thanks.  Given that we are not exactly reverse engineering it but rather using it as a model for designing a new internal only greyscale adapter, we probably don't need that at the moment. However, perhaps when the time comes you can help getting the resultant board manufactured in China in sufficient quantities.

But your offer makes me wonder though, could the Chinese simply clone the Xceed card verbatim?  Is that even possible?

Another question for all the have contributed to this thread so far is, what about drivers?  Will this be able to use just the standard Micron driver that the 308-48 uses? 

I should have been more clear, they can also create a CAD from an original PCB then make a sample board.  It would be cheaper than reverse engineering a chip.  It can be rather time consuming and I'd like to keep tedious tasks away from the talented people on here who could better be used for figuring how how to convert things to make them work for the SE/30. 

 

[maceffects]

@pcamen I should mention that there are 2 things preventing us from proceeding with the actual board itself.  1) a significant sum of reverse engineering money 2) someone who is willing to donate their board to be destroyed.  I contacted the place that quoted me in the past for the chip I had reverse engineered in the past.  I'm told the chip on this Xceed card is more advanced and would be more expensive

 

[pax]

What card are you using out of curiosity?

@pcamen Xceed Color 30, with the grayscale adapter.

 

[pcamen]

Ah, very good @pax.

Do you find, as they say, that you can only use internal greyscale or external monitor, but not both at the same time? 

I've been afraid to try mine out (and I have lots of other stuff to do). 

 

[pcamen]

I should mention that there are 2 things preventing us from proceeding with the actual board itself.  1) a significant sum of reverse engineering money 2) someone who is willing to donate their board to be destroyed.  I contacted the place that quoted me in the past for the chip I had reverse engineered in the past.  I'm told the chip on this Xceed card is more advanced and would be more expensive

Is it possible to put a general order of magnitude to the cost?  I'm just curious how expensive such an endeavor is. 

 

[jessenator]

Maceffects said for a normal job it's ~$500–$800, so I'm going to hazard a guess that it'll be $1500 at the low end, but I'll wait on him for the real (soul crushing) number

 

[pcamen]

I assume that's just for the reverse engineering, not the tooling and production of the board and harnesses. 

So far I am not scared away from that prospect.  I still like the internal greyscale only project too.  I think that puts us on the path to eventually being able to do more with a newly built card, like overloading it with some of the other stuff people have been wanting.  And an SE/30 with just an internal greyscale upgrade is pretty cool IMHO. 

@Bolle @techknight @Trash80toHP_Mini (sorry if I left someone out) - you guys seem to be the ones to answer a question like this.  Do you think it would be possible to drive the SE/30 tube at a higher resolution, like the 640x480 that the Mystic upgrade for the Color Classic achieves?  Or is that apples and oranges?

 

[pax]

@pcamen That's right, when an external monitor is attached, the internal monitor is b/w only.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Do you think it would be possible to drive the SE/30 tube at a higher resolution, like the 640x480 that the Mystic upgrade for the Color Classic achieves?  Or is that apples and oranges?

That'd be a CC Apple and the 128k RoadApple video systems compared. Techknight has a thread somewhere about doing the 640x480 conversion the "right way." CC had enough head room designed into its Video Subsystem to do 640x480 IIRC. The original Mac Video didn't, period, at least so far as research by many have determined at this point.

@maceffects I think your contacts will come in very handy for pricing and eventuall producing the Grayscale Harness/Neckboard kit, that work has already been done by Bolle for his Color30 find..





View attachment 14394

View attachment 14395

I'm of the opinion that the harness should be an exact replication of the Color30's with ferrite rings and B&W video passthru. That way the "original part" replication will be in production for bare Color30s out in the wilds. The passthru need only be connected to one side of a three header jumper setup for choosing internal B&W video or the Clone's GS signal to feed the GS Neck board from the opposite pin with the connection from the center pin connected to the Neck Board. Such might prove useful in troubleshooting either video system in the future.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Been poking my nose into searched threads hereabouts. Came up with a doozy by JDW from March:





Gems he turned up a/o scanned in for us in that in that thread:

MICRON XCEED SPECS table.

View attachment 26949  - User Manual

View attachment 26995

Wayback specs link works. Hopefully the lower two links will start working again after the admins have a chance to look at the issues we're having. Thanks guys!

OEM Harness I'd love to see in a reproduction, duplicating all its convoluted glory:

Harness Diagram I've been cleaning up in AI:

OEM Neck Board:

Props to Bolle for his single sided board implementation:

View attachment 14173

Anybody happen to have the install a/o user manuals for the Xceed 306-48?