Radius Pivot on SE/30

[9166188]

De nada, but I'm not really a technical expert. We've got those and that gang knows how to use a sillysclope or a at least a good multimeter. Ohm's law gives me a headache, so I look at it like electron plumbing. I'm just an amateur student of Paleolithic computer architectures to keep the noggin a churnin' and the creative juices flowing.

I feel your pain though, this is incredibly frustrating just to watch. Thanks to mj, I now have a working SE/30, so If someone wants to send me their board I can do a methodical workup on it as I did for the RCPII/IIsi back when we didn't know much of anything about it. The tools for simple stuff like that I've got.

I cannot think otherwise but admire your generosity in offering help!   Had I live in the US, I would send over the card right away (sadly I am from a continent across the Pacific ocean that was separated from America many many millions years ago).   But I will try to get a VGA-to-Mac adaptor to do some hitting the wall experiments (fyi I have been using a hardwired apple2vga cable).  Is it what the discussion in your workup link was about?  I am not technical enough to understand well so I am assuming those letter labels are equivalents to the dips in a VGA-to-Mac adaptor.    :b&w:   

 

[9166188]

You are making progress by seeing the DeclROM splash screen! As referenced in the thread (which I noticed you posted in):

Yeah, thanks!   I actually didn't understand what a DeclRom was and likely still don't but was hoping not to give my ignorance away by asking.  

Hey, but I do understand what a splash screen is, especially when I saw one on my LG LCD myself because at the beginning I only used Apple CRT which was always blank.   :b&w:

 

[Themk]

Here is the run down on Declaration ROM (DeclROM):

• It is a ROM chip that is located on the actual card itsself (Do not confuse it for the computer's ROM)
• NuBus and PDS cards use it
• It contains drivers for the basic functions of the card
• It also contains the initialization routines too (like the splash screen)

Basically it describes the device, and provides a driver for it. The driver for a VidCard in DeclROM is usually all you will ever need, unless you are trying to use extended features.

 

[9166188]

Here is the run down on Declaration ROM (DeclROM):

• It is a ROM chip that is located on the actual card itsself (Do not confuse it for the computer's ROM)
• NuBus and PDS cards use it
• It contains drivers for the basic functions of the card
• It also contains the initialization routines too (like the splash screen)

Basically it describes the device, and provides a driver for it. The driver for a VidCard in DeclROM is usually all you will ever need, unless you are trying to use extended features.

Thanks a lot for the info with such clarity!   It shows one can always learn something by asking.     

I am amazed to learn the driver is already in the card, ready for the OS to deploy its basic functions.   Such a good idea of the time!   It feels like truly consumer electronics.   Someone, who used to installing drivers for every piece of newly added hardware, must find such convenience too simple and too good to be true.  

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I cannot think otherwise but admire your generosity in offering help!   Had I live in the US, I would send over the card right away  .  .  .

I am not technical enough to understand well so I am assuming those letter labels are equivalents to the dips in a VGA-to-Mac adaptor.    :b&w:   

No problem, maybe someone over here has a card to lend?

The dials are a lot more convenient for testing.

The Declaration ROM gets its name from it's job of "declaring" to the system that it's there on a card, to what classification that card belongs and with a location directory for the system to look up whatever drivers might be required to make it function. The CPU knows the slot the report came from by which lines got a tug during the report and all is good to go without any of the jumper configuration nonsense necessary on earlier and most concurrent expansion bus systems.

IIRC, Microchannel had much the same setup on the other side of the fence, dunno what the VESA gang were up to, but ISA was in shambles and then things got pretty much straightened out by the time PCI was adopted across the board.

 

[9166188]

A great collection u got there.   It's the first time I see a dial adaptor.   Ingenious design!   

I am late to the game of collecting 68k machines and only have a couple.

Many of u guys in this forum must have a museum of them in your dungeon.   :b&w:

Thanks for summing up the mechanics of Decl ROM!

Is there any tool to show or change the default configuration of the DeclROM?

I am guessing the Pivot ROM defaults to portrait mode on boot and thus my Apple CRT fails to display anything. 

I  vaguely remember those popular acronyms u mentioned from the 80s/90s.

I once bought a PC with EISA bus slots.  It was not cheap and I don't think it turned out to be practically useful.  

These plug-and-play technologies were often utopia that were good in theory but mirage in reality.

Complexity always find a way to break good human intentions.  

I hope PDS/NuBus have fared better in the quest.

 

[Themk]

You should run TattleTech with your LG monitor displaying the splash screen, to see if it can find your card (as apparently the monitors control panel can't). Trash also had some links on examining the DeclROM of a card too, can't quite remember where they were. You might want to look in to that to see what resolutions are supported by the card.

 

[Themk]

Found the post where Trash was talking about DeclROM examination. (https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/9157-peripherals-links-project-rev-30/?p=96711) Using TattleTech should give you the info you are looking for.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Does anyone here in the US have one of these cards I could play around with for a week or two? I'd love to do a workup on it like I did for the RCPII/IIsi. Curiosity about it is eating away at what litlle is left of my sanity. :blink:

 

[Themk]

I hope you can find one jt. Let's hope that 9166188 is able to do a little TattleTech for us in the mean time.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Unfortunately, TattleTech's not really going to do much more than give us the board's name, ROM revision and maybe internal driver IDs. Gotta get my hands on one to go through the paces, this is ridiculous.

I'm in dire need some comfortable, repetitive, methodical routine distraction/downtime from the insanity of the DayStar gig.

 

[Themk]

TattleTech is not much, but it is a start!

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Distractions found!  [] ]'>  Another retroactive conquest or two . . .

 

[9166188]

The default resolution is "incorrect".   Please see snapshots.

Findings:

1. as you can see in the Monitor section, the system incorrectly assumes my display to be a 640x864 portrait screen (my CRT is 640x480). 

2. in the PDS section, the driver index is "-50" which is linked to a driver named ".Radius Flipper" under the Drivers section.   This Radius driver is only active when my CRT is on and connected.   It think the driver was provided by Apple from factory and was hardcoded to assume 640x864.   I cannot replace it by installing SoftPivot/RadiusWare because these installs only add to the INIT Files section but have no direct link to the driver index according to the TattleTech report.  

So, without a Radius portrait monitor, we will need a way to change the default 640x864 by forcing ".Radius Flipper" driver to accept other resolutions such as 640x480.   Or we need to replace the driver with something more capable.   I was hoping the jumpers on card can do that, but that hope was dashed by Trash.   Sadly, TattleTech can only report, but not make changes to the settings.   Experimenting dips on a VGA-to-Mac adaptor as Trash suggested may be the most hopeful path and it is possibly the only thing we can tinker easily.   

If you have a multisync LCD, you must first ensure your System can see it and it appears under Control Panel/Monitors.   Otherwise, the Radius driver is not active to do anything.   I like to recap that my System 6 cannot see a second monitor when connecting to my multisync LG LCD (showing a Radius flashscreen).    These captures are from TattleTech2.17 running on System 6.08 connected to a 13" Apple High Resolution CRT.

 
Also, I am only able to test on System 6 for now because my System 7 disk is corrupted and unbootable.  But the basic problems are likely the same.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

What's the native resolution of your LCD?

What kind of a VGA adapter are you using to hook it up to the Pivot Card?

What adapter setting on the VGA adapter shows the Radius logo at startup on your LCD?

What settings have you tried so far and with what results?

Try all settings on your adapter that I reported as being supported by the RCPII/IIsi, especially 16" Standard Mac.

For some reason or other, the card seems to be interpreting the sense coding on your Apple monitor's cable as being from a portrait monitor. I've got a DA-15 to DA-15 Liberty Dial adapter that I figure is for straightening these kinds of things out, so a sense code hack might work.

You're not going to be able to do anything at ROM or driver level. This is a hardware problem, which is why I want to get my grubby little paws on one of these cards!!!!!

 

[9166188]

If I locate the pin numbers correctly:

LEFT: MAC-to-VGA cable (connect to LG LCD native@1920x1080):   pin 3 and 8 are missing.

Interestingly, with this adaptor, my LG LCD thinks the video signal from the Radius card is 1440x900@69Hz.

But my radius driver thinks the monitor is 640x864.

The Radius splash screen is blue only.

RIGHT: Apple display cable (connect to 13" Apple CRT):    pin 8, 12, 14 and 15 are missing.

Again, only blank screen.  Do the missing pins look normal to such cable?  

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Should have asked those questions much earlier on, sorry. Coffe's brewing, but I've got a little time available, so don't expect  .  .  .

Someone else will have to confirm that they look normal. I don't remember having seen Apple cables with missing pins. I may not have noticed, not much experience with Apple monitors or cables, certainly nothing that primitive. They don't look at all right to me, missing sense or ground lines can't be a good thing. IIRC that the 13" RGB monitor pre-dated the Macintosh II release by a bit, so all bets are off when it comes to its interface setup. IIRC Apple's frame buffer cards for the II were fixed resolution so I don't know when the standardized sense coding scheme entered the picture. Don't know the release dates of more capable monitors or cards that would have required sense coding either.  

AFAIK that Mac to VGA cable probably isn't going to "work" because the RCPII/IIsi doesn't output anything in the normal VGA range and it's from a later generation of Pivots.

The cable I used isn't in the project drawer, but I'm sure it was a straight thru cable that let the monitor tell the Mac what it needed as input. You'll need to get one of those and a VGA adapter with switches or a dial that supports all the resolutions listed as working in the RCPII/IIsi thread before you can do meaningful testing.

http://old.pinouts.ru/VideoCables/MacVideoToVGA_pinout.shtml

Looks like some of your missing pins may be accounted for, but you'll need to noodle it out.

Once again: drivers have nothing to do with getting this to work with non-pivoting monitors. Get the cable (generic, straight thru, don't get another Apple cable) and configurable adapter, it's definitely a hardware problem.

Don't have a clue about how a color display reacts to single line input from a monochrome card when it's only set up for RGB. That's on the list for future playtime, collecting cards for that project  .  .  .

.  .  .  still not quite awake. :wacko:

 

[9166188]

Thanks again Trash!   That link is great!   I am pleasantly surprised you came up with many useful stuff even before effect of caffeine.  

Unfortunately, both my Apple CRT and the Pivot card seem very stubborn and nitpicking on what they are compatible with.

I have a feeling the Apple monitor cable may be fine as it is.  Those missing pins are not SENSE pins (4/7/10).

But, right, I will try to get a full cable DB15 w/o missing pins to see how it goes.

Also, I will acquire a VGA2MAC switchable adaptor.   This path seems more promising.  

Themk, hope you are more lucky in your attempts. 

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

DE nada. Pretty sure I finished at least the first mug before getting to the linkage. When the new hardware arrives, be sure to do a methodical workup of all options in order to post a comprehensive presentation of your results in a new, dedicated howto thread. This one is getting a little long in the tooth to be useful for posting finalized results. They need to be up front and center in a specifically titled thread.

Curious to see how you deal with the Blue Screen of Confusion/Monochrome Edition when it crops up on your LCD. Toying with options, I've been thinking along the lines of an amplifier/splitter adapter that will run RGB lines at identical levels to white-correct old monochrome card output for use with color displays. Dunno, just a passing thought. 

 

[Themk]

Themk, hope you are more lucky in your attempts. 

I've been quite lucky- my SE/30 video card outputs standard color at 640x480.

Curious to see how you deal with the Blue Screen of Confusion/Monochrome Edition when it crops up on your LCD. Toying with options, I've been thinking along the lines of an amplifier/splitter adapter that will run RGB lines at identical levels to white-correct old monochrome card output for use with color displays. Dunno, just a passing thought. 

Try tying the monochrome output line to both R, G, and B on the VGA monitor. SHOULD (no guarantees though) give you white when the line goes high.