Radius Pivot on SE/30

[Themk]

Yeah, not sure what the differences are between the monochrome vs the color Radius Pivot cards. It is possible that the color version has a newer ROM revision, that is System 7 compatible. Personally I have a RasterOps ColorBoard 264/SE30 for my SE/30, so I'm not too much help regarding the actual hardware of the Radius Pivot cards.

 

[9166188]

It's a pity this ROM (truly loyal to its name as Read Only Memory) is not rewritable, but thanks for letting me know instead of keep my curiosity on hoping.  

I guess we are best guessing upgrading to a newer ROM version will make it works on System 7.   

Assuming that's the case, still there must be a time in 1990 (when it came out) the combination of (System 6 + original old ROM + driver) worked friendly together.

So, what baffled me is why we can't reproduce what was a typical SE/30 setup in 1990.

 

[9166188]

I can think of two other things to try but blocked:

(1) Try old driver from 1989/90 with System 6.   Where to download?

(2) There are some jumpers on the pivot board.  What are they for?  Can they be experimented safely?

Perhaps some of u may know the answers.

 

[Themk]

RadiusWare 3.2.5 will work on System 6. Also you might try booting a fresh system 6 install with not even RadiusWare installed, just for testing. Then try installing RadiusWare. Good luck!

Edit: Regarding the jumper blocks, I have no idea.

 

[apm]

Hi apm. I'd be interested to know which version of the system software works with your card and what types of drivers are installed.

I'm running 7.5.3. It's been a while since I used the card, and at the moment I don't have any drivers installed (they may have been lost when I switched from a failing hard drive to SCSI2SD). But I do recall that it worked, though I could never get the pivot function to work. 

 

[BadGoldEagle]

Thanks for the info apm. I shall try and replicate your setup.

9166188, I don't understand either why we can't reproduce the same conditions. Perhaps the RadiusWare disk is too new for system 6...

I can't see the difference between the monochrome Pivot and the color one. Are the ports supposed to be the same?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Jumpers on IIsi and SE/30 cards are commonly there for configuration of the card's Slot ID to prevent conflicts in a multiple expansion card scenario.

 

[Themk]

9166188, I don't understand either why we can't reproduce the same conditions. Perhaps the RadiusWare disk is too new for system 6...

RadiusWare 3.2.5 should work on System 6.0.8 according to the read me. 9166188 apparently has RW 3.2.5 already.

 

[9166188]

Thanks ALL for your ideas!  

RadiusWare 3.2.5 should work on System 6.0.8 according to the read me. 9166188 apparently has RW 3.2.5 already.

Themk, I can give it a try later -- I am away from my Macs this weekend.  

Trash80toHP, thanks for the jumper info!   I was mildly hoping these jumpers could change default resolution setting.

BadGoldEagle, I agree.  It's sad the original old driver for System 6 can no longer be found.   I had tried RW3 on System 7.   And I will try RW3 on System 6.   

You have the ROM images.   Do u have the kits needed to forge an upgraded ROM?
I notice under the RadiusWare folder, there is a little program called MrFlash1.2.3.
Anyone know if it has anything to do with Pivot ROM?
 
Thanks!

 

[Themk]

MrFlash looks like it is for updating the ROM on Thunder IV cards.

 

[9166188]

Thanks!  

I tried RadiusWare3 on System 6.0.8, but all the same again, got blank screen on my Apple CRT.  

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Just checked that monitor you spec'd early on, you need to be running your tests on a high end MultiSync display or you're wasting your time.

Rule of thumb: if you can't see the Radius splash screen at startup, you're never going to see anything on that monitor.

edit: I can't stress this enough, but all drivers necessary for a NuBus Architecture (SE/30 included) VidCard's basic functions, including all supported resolutions will be found in the Declaration ROM of the card. If you're not pivoting the Display, you don't need a driver to use a Pivot Card, period.*** Drivers for Slot Manager compliant cards are for features beyond a cards basic functions, see: RasterOps Colorboard 264/SE30

DeclROM versions are another matter, but they're almost invariably backward compatible.

***In my extensive experience testing many brands of Video Cards, NuBus and PDS including Radius' Pivots for IIsi, LC, NuBus and SE/30 (that was tested in the IIsi as I didn't have an SE/30 at the time and now I can't find that *&%^*& card!).

YMMV

 

[Themk]

With my RasterOps card, (thats my thread that Trash linked to), there is NO software required or needed for operation of the card. While that card has some extended features that I will want to install software for, the basic display functions DO NOT require a software installation! I think you probably have some physical problems going on here, and as Trash said, if you can't see the Declaration ROM splash screen, it is game over until you can see that. If you have a DA15 to VGA adaptor (which is mentioned in my thread), you can always try to hook up a modern MultiSync LCD, or a MultiSync CRT monitor. Likely, your Apple 13-inch monitor doesn't like the video output from your Radius Pivot card-Sorry.

EDIT: I found a thread that talks a little bit about what your problem might be: Radius pivot card for SE/30 monitor compatability

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Just checked, very strange, 640 x 480 x 66 Hz @ 8 Bit - 13"/14" RGB (Fixed Res Mac Monitor Standard) is supported by the RCPII/IIsi. I had no problems with the MultiSync CRTs. However, when I tried it with my usually bulletproof Dell MultiSync CRT, it wouldn't hold sync.

Mind you, I never tried to use any actual Apple Monitors, so give another display a try to see if you can get a handle on whether something is up with card or display. You're getting nowhere as you're currently testing. The card's DeclROM drivers are working fine by the looks of your Monitors Control Panel piccie, but there's a lot of card past that ROM.

Something strange is definitely going on.

 

[Themk]

I'm pretty sure this is the greyscale model of the card, might have slightly different monitor compatibility than the color pivot. While Trash points out that the 640x480 13'' monitor works with the color pivot card, it might not work with the greyscale pivot.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I didn't actually say it "worked with that monitor." I said I tested the RCPII/IIsi Pivot Card methodically at all appropriate settings on a high quality VGA Adapter to determine which were displayed correctly on a top end 21" MultiSync CRT with a convenient resolution/refresh rate readout panel on the front.

Some combinations just don't work when they really ought to  .  .  .  you can ask my ex.

 

[Themk]

Sorry, I misread it! :I Ignore what I said above! :O Sorry about that.

 

[9166188]

Trash, thanks again for confirming what will not work.   In desperation we are witnessing one will try everything.  I am relieved now as these failed attempts are confirmed by the technical experts and I don't have to hit the same wall again.   But I did find out the type of display does make a difference in the process:

=> Apple 13-inch High Resolution CRT Monitor

o always blank screen

o 2nd monitor is shown in Control Panel/Monitors

=> MultiSync LG LCD (thru VGA adaptor)

o shows splash screen: Radius logo at a corner against a dim blue-ish background

o cannot find 2nd monitor in Control Panel/Monitors

So, it seems that the Apple OS can see my Apple CRT, but not my LG LCD.   On the other hand, the Pivot card can drive my LG LCD but not my Apple CRT (likely due to incompatible resolution/frequency setting).   But what a pity, neither works in my environment.   It makes me wonder whether SE/30 can only work with an original Pivot Display without change to the ROM.   But then, in this thread, tact had it working against a non-Apple/Radius display? 

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Trash, thanks again for confirming what will not work.   In desperation we are witnessing one will try everything.  I am relieved now as these failed attempts are confirmed by the technical experts and I don't have to hit the same wall again

De nada, but I'm not really a technical expert. We've got those and that gang knows how to use a sillysclope or a at least a good multimeter. Ohm's law gives me a headache, so I look at it like electron plumbing. I'm just an amateur student of Paleolithic computer architectures to keep the noggin a churnin' and the creative juices flowing.

I feel your pain though, this is incredibly frustrating just to watch. Thanks to mj, I now have a working SE/30, so If someone wants to send me their board I can do a methodical workup on it as I did for the RCPII/IIsi back when we didn't know much of anything about it. The tools for simple stuff like that I've got.

 

[Themk]

I didn't actually say it "worked with that monitor." I said I tested the RCPII/IIsi Pivot Card methodically at all appropriate settings on a high quality VGA Adapter to determine which were displayed correctly on a top end 21" MultiSync CRT with a convenient resolution/refresh rate readout panel on the front.

Re-read that thread after you posted that, I almost felt like slapping my self, it's so obvious. Sometimes the neurons decide that they don't want to make a connection

=> Apple 13-inch High Resolution CRT Monitor

o always blank screen

o 2nd monitor is shown in Control Panel/Monitors

=> MultiSync LG LCD (thru VGA adaptor)

o shows splash screen: Radius logo at a corner against a dim blue-ish background

o cannot find 2nd monitor in Control Panel/Monitors

So, it seems that the Apple OS can see my Apple CRT, but not my LG LCD.   On the other hand, the Pivot card can drive my LG LCD but not my Apple CRT (likely due to incompatible resolution/frequency setting).   But what a pity, neither works in my environment.   It makes me wonder whether SE/30 can only work with an original Pivot Display without change to the ROM.   But then, in this thread, tact had it working against a non-Apple/Radius display?

You are making progress by seeing the DeclROM splash screen! As referenced in the thread (which I noticed you posted in):

The Blue startup screen looks exactly like Portrait Display resolutions streatch, you get the opposite effect on an FPD screen when it's fed a TPD signal.

Search the Peripherals Forum, there are a couple of good threads, if not SE/30 specific, about this subject.

Correct me, but I assume that the startup process continues normally on your SE/30's internal monitor, with the Radius splash screen staying on the external monitor? What DIP switch settings are you using on your VGA adaptor? And even if you can't see the 2nd monitor, is there anything in your control panel suggesting that the Radius card is detected by the system?  What system version are you using? Sorry this has been such a pain.