PowerBook G3 Wallstreet PDQ RAM Compatibility

[JDW]

...maybe you could ask if it is possible with an original HDD? They might have said impossible if you don't have the original HDD, but possibly possible otherwise... just stabbing in the dark here...

I actually wrote them a second email about the "original hard drive" requirement, to confirm whether or not it truly is a "requirement." I had been waiting for a reply, but so far they have not given me one. In light of how fast they gave me their first reply, the delay in getting me a second reply indicates that they feel they said all that was needed to be said about an obsolete, discontinued product. Of course, I am dissatisfied with that, especially in light of the fact that I told them I would be posting their information in a vintage Mac forum for other enthusiasts to read, thus eliminating any future questions about the issue. Indeed, I sought to extend them a favor, but they (so far anyway) have given me the cold shoulder with regard to my second question. Perhaps they simply don't know. But in that case, they should have sent me an email saying so. Or at the very least, they could have sent me a reply that said, "No guarantees, but we'll look into it." But no reply at all is just not right, even for a discontinued and obsolete product. (If they truly wanted to rid themselves of every single memory of such ancient Sonnet products, why then maintain a product web page and FAQ for those old products? Logically, it makes no sense.)

Of course, if they do offer me the courtesy of a reply, I will be 100% content and I will of course post that here for all to read.

Also, it would probably be best to ensure it was really scrapped. I'm sure you know how there can be ...lets call them... "disconnects" between tech service/PR and what is actually going on.
"Hey Dorris, We get rid of the ROM Flasher?"

"Yup, scrapped it a few years ago."

(While the ROM dumper is really sitting in the back storage area...)

Since Sonnet hasn't replied to the second email I sent to them yesterday, I doubt they would respond to another email about that. But perhaps it would do them good if you or another one of us contacted them directly: support@sonnettech.com

Truly, if Sonnet sees that it's not just me alone who is asking them about these old products, they may see the wisdom in my original advise to them and tell us what we want to know so we won't bother them anymore. The end result will be good for them and good for us.

You're right about them most likely still having a ROM flasher. It doesn't make sense that they would have merely trashed it. And if they had, what modern company these days doesn't keep records on what they buy, sell or dispose of? It's not nuclear waste, for crying out loud.

I don't wish to make the reader feel I am unduly harping on Sonnet. I have actually purchased other upgrades from them in the past (e.g., for my G4 Cube) and have always been satisfied with the company. They did make some great upgrade products. I simply am distraught over spending all these hours researching the 500MHz G3 CPU upgrade and still not having all the answers, even though the answers are so close within my grasp.

Lastly, thank you for the photos. I see that the "semi low profile" SO-DIMMs should indeed fit in either CPU card slot.

 

[beachycove]

It seems to me more likely than not that, back in the day, if someone had been going to spend real money on upgrading a WS, it would have been on the best of them. The best of them were the last of them: the models with the 14" screen, and the (common) 266MHz or (rare) 300MHz processors with 1MB L2 backside cache. Some of the earlier WS series were rather poor (12" passive matrix screens that were truly dire and that at 800x600 only, or 13" active-matrix screens that were highly unreliable, and some even had anemic, cacheless processors), so that you'd have been nuts to want to invest any more money in one. You couldn't even swap the screens between good and bad models, mostly. But they got much, much better. There is a reason that it is the last iterations of the WS that you mostly see for sale, as those are the ones that most pleased, were most reliable, and thus that most often have been valued and have survived.

Frankly, though, I would not fuss over a Sonnet upgrade for a minute. A 266MHz WS is already a slick, genuinely "old world" PowerBook for OS 8.1-9.22 work, and it will even run X.3 relatively well if you have the RAM for it (X.3 via xpostfacto). I would judge it to make much more sense to spend the money on a Pismo if greater speed in OS9 or if OSX on a classic 'book is desired. Unless you are doing something crazy like encoding mp3s on the WS, you will not really want for more megahertz. Most everything is perfectly snappy already.

I used a 14" WS, 266MHz, daily for several years in OS9 and it never really disappointed — with the exception of 3D games. Even Bugdom was a struggle (my youngsters used to play it on the thing). But then, a processor upgrade is not really going to help you there.

I still have that 14" machine and use it still more than most for this and that. The localtalk port, floppy bay, and so on makes them very flexible units. The keyboard is really superb — much better than a Pismo's (do not believe anyone, e.g. on LEM, no matter how illustrious, Canadian and bearded, who says otherwise).

I also have a fair number of spare parts, by the way, should you need something when the time comes, as I obtained several spares as they appeared for small sums over the years in order to refurbish and give away, and to keep mine ship-shape. I became pretty adept at it, and must have stripped down various WS machines completely twenty or thirty times. I have no spare large RAM chips, alas, though I do have a sizeable number of small (32MB, 64MB) ones.

 

[theos911]

I have a 300. The legacy ports are why I have it. I could upgrade, but I'd lose my ports... Besides, fully upgraded (w/ 500 G4) I'd need a TiBook 800 to out CPU it. (Look at those benchmarks... it beats a TiBook 667, HOW? idk, but that's some serious Old World pride right there.)

Also, I want to!

I've toyed with the idea of getting a 1GHz TiBook for OS 9, but it seems ...cheap...

Lastly, my PDQ isn't just my main OS 9 machine. It is my main laptop. Thus, whatever I can do to improve it, I'm all for. (In my mind) I'd rather push it some than buy a newer one.

 

[JDW]

Hi Beachy,

Thanks for sharing your Wallstreet PDQ experience!

As I mentioned in my opening post, I intend to use my Wallstreet as a link machine between an old Mac 512k and modern OS X Lion Macs, as described in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16849&p=159095#p157775

This is why I didn't think twice about newer Lombard or Pismo models, because they don't have the serial port necessary for LocalTalk networking.

But at the same time, I wanted to make this machine more than a one-trick pony. That's why I've pondered the 500MHz G3 upgrade. I've also considered additional RAM, although I probably won't need more than the 128MB I have right now in OS 9, since I won't be putting OS X on it.

You're correct about the slow video though. So I don't know how much more use out of it I'd get from a 500MHz G3 when using fun or educational OS 9 software for my kids. I do know it would just be "snappier" overall.

I also have been mulling the OWC Legacy 40GB SSD. But the $150+shipping gives me pause. I will wait and see what kind of discounts BLACK FRIDAY brings this year and make a purchasing decision then.

I also need a battery, since my Wallstreet didn't come with one. OWC sells them "new" (however old that "new" stock is, I don't know), but man they are expensive at $100 each. I see a guy on EBAY who sells the official Apple branded batteries. He even charges and tests them to see how much battery life they get. On one he claims it gets more than 4 hours. But I worry about those Apple branded ones because we all know when they were last made. After 10 years they should be about dead, even if they were never used before. Which brings me back to OWC and their good but expensive batteries. But again, we'll see what BLACK FRIDAY brings.

 

[JDW]

Well, the 500MHz G3 is a dead end. It's confirmed. The seller sent me the serial number of the Wallstreet in which he tested the CPU card and confirmed it worked: CK8211W8CWH

If you look up that serial here you'll see its a 13" model, pre-PDQ:

http://www.chipmunk.nl/klantenservice/applemodel.html

For sake of comparing, my Wallstreet has the following serial: QT9031GPE6D

And here's the WIKI on what defines a PDQ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3#PowerBook_G3_Series_.28Wallstreet_Series_II.2C_AKA_PDQ.29

I'm still rather upset Sonnet was didn't have the foresight to design their cards to be more easily restored to their pre-flashed state. The end user should be able to do that!

So let this thread be a warning for those of you who find CPU cards for Wallstreets online, especially from Sonnet. They may not work in your machine, depending on what machine they were originally flashed in.

But for those of you who wish to tinker and possible restore the ROM yourself, here is the product I had so badly wanted to buy:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00006BBLK/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

Siragan was very helpful. He appears to be an enthusiast too. I'm sure he'd answer any questions you might have (which aren't already answered in this thread).

 

[theos911]

I don't see how this is a definite end. It works in an earlier model, so.... that means it could have a R1 OR R2 ROM.

Is he the original owner that did the flashing? Did he do it in that powerbook? Or, was it just the test bed?

 

[JDW]

The seller did not originally flash the card. He merely used the 13" PB as a test bed. If you define R1 as Revision 1, then that is what is flashed in the Sonnet card, as evidenced by the fact it works (with video) in that R1 Wallstreet 13". And that shows it won't work in the R2 (newer PDQs) as the R1 ROM refers to a video chip that the R2 PDQ's don't have. That is why some Sonnet users have reported no video when they moved the Sonnet card to a newer machine. Scroll back up and read the threads I linked for you which talk about this.

 

[theos911]

A R2 ROM will work in a R1 machine. It is the vice versa that is the problem. That is why you can put a R2 cpu board in a R1 WS, but not vice versa.

It working in a R1 means:

It works

It works in a R1 b:

It may work in a R2 :-/

So, at this point...

Feeling lucky... punk?

Unless of course I'm wrong and you can't use R2 cpus in a R1, but I'm pretty sure you can.

 

[JDW]

Defining terms for all who come after reading this:

R1 = Revision 1 ROM, pre-PDQ Wallstreet (specifically including the 13" screen editions)

R2 = Revision 2 ROM, PDQ Wallstreet (the last revision of the Wallstreet Apple manufactured before they moved to Lombard)

Now, as was stated previously, the Amazon seller of the CPU card tested the 500MHz G3 Sonnet card in a R1 Wallstreet with 13" screen. It worked perfectly on that machine, which shows it will not work perfectly on an R2 machine. Why? Because as stated previously the ROM of the Sonnet card has been flashed with R1, and R1 won't recognize the video chip in R2 Wallstreets. And according to Sonnet, they lack the hardware device to reflash Sonnet CPU cards that have already been flashed. (If you doubt this, please email Sonnet tech support and beg them to search their warehouse. They never replied back to me though about my question concerning the "stock hard drive" requirement.)

So unless you use a 13" Wallstreet or another R1 Wallstreet with that particular Sonnet card, or unless you are a techno genius who can figure out how to restore the ROM in the Sonnet card to its pre-flashed (empty) state, you will not be able to use that Sonnet card in an R2 Wallstreet.

The seller of the Sonnet card contacted me today to say that he is willing to sell his 13" Wallstreet along with the Sonnet card, for anyone interested. I already have a PDQ, so I am not interested. And I don't feel lucky enough to think that buying this Sonnet card will magically make it work in my PDQ. The card is being sold for $120, plus shipping. And since I live in Japan, shipping is often quite high. So for those of you who can get cheap domestic shipping in the US, by all means, give it a try!

 

[theos911]

Because as stated previously the ROM of the Sonnet card has been flashed with R1, and R1 won't recognize the video chip in R2 Wallstreets.

How do you know it is flashed with a R1 ROM? A R2 (to the best of my knowledge) will work fine in a R1. This is why you can use R2 cpu boards in a R1 mb, but not vice versa.

Thus, the fact that it works in a R1 PB does not explicitly imply that it is a R1 ROM. It could be either R1 or R2.

 

[JDW]

Sorry, I awoke with a major headache this morning and I'm still awaiting relieve from my Excedrin tablet. Your thinking is logical. I will speak with the seller and see what he has to say.

 

[theos911]

That was me Friday...

Glad to see you know what I mean now. I wasn't sure if it was possible to make it clearer... or if my thinking was off. I put some feelers out to see if a R2 ROM will run a R1 pb. I'm pretty sure it will, but no source to back it. The only sources I've found are the ones that say that all cpu cards are changeable, which according to apple is true, but as we've found is not. Hopefully someone on the LEM facebook page can help. However, now I'm wondering...

Maybe there are two different R1 ROMS. One for the 14.1 and one for 13.1/12.1 . I wish I had some testing units, but alas, I have only my R2 PDQ and its two 300 R2 cpu boards.

Lastly, I'd grab the upgrade, but 120$ is not in the budget atm...

 

[JDW]

Here's what the seller had to say:

I thought about that too, but I must assume it was not flashed in a PDQ. I got it with some WallStreets a while back, and at least two of those were not PDQs. If I had a PDQ, I'd test it out, but I don't.

So it is highly likely it was flashed on a pre-PDQ machine. I therefore am unwilling to take a $120 + $60 (shipping) risk that it "might" work, nor am I willing to spend time to figure out how to restore the Sonnet card's ROM to its pre-flashed state. But perhaps one among us here is willing to do that. Simply refer to the Amazon link I posted before to purchase. And return here to let us know what happens!

 

[theos911]

Well, I don't have the $120+, the knowledge to flash it, nor am I close enough to make a trip with my PDQ... :'(

Anyone in MA want to lend a test run?

EDIT- Is there anyway to make OF show the ROM version? Or, is it shown in system profiler? TRYING THIS NOW! IF IT IS THIS EASY AND WE MISSED IT....... 8-o

Edit 2 - Houston, We have ignition!!!

In system profiler, my ROM version reads as $77D.41F6 . See what your says, ask sirigan to test his. (feels like a kid in a candy store )