PowerBook G3 Wallstreet PDQ RAM Compatibility

[JDW]

I recently purchased a PB G3 PDQ 266MHz for $15 (plus shipping). It was a nice find that I intend to use as a link machine between an old Mac 512k and modern OS X Lion Macs, as described in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16849&p=159095#p157775

But of course, that will not the exclusive use for my new Wallstreet, so I am mulling upgrades for it so it can better serve me in other applications too. One upgrade of course is to max out the RAM. I have heard that 512MB will work, however, there is some doubt in my mind as to what is and is not compatible. Some say that the RAM would have to be single-sided (i.e., chips on only 1 side of the board, not both sides), otherwise the PB G3 would only use half of the RAM (i.e., use only 64MB of a 128MB 2-sided stick of RAM). Is this true? What is your experience? And do you have a brand and model number that you could direct me to?

Also, I have the opportunity to purchase a 500MHz G3 accelerator for my new Wallstreet, which would make it abundantly more usable that its stock 266MHz speed. I noticed that OWC sells 256MB RAM sticks that they say are compatible with the Wallstreet:

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/100SO256168L/

Being unsure if they would work with the 500MHz upgrade I've been mulling, I wrote to OWC. I thought they might have the answers I needed in light of the fact that OWC once sold the 500MHz G3 accelerator I have the opportunity to buy. Dave from OWC offered me the following reply:

..."we believe the [500MHz upgrade] board requires single-sided RAM chips, which OWC's variety does not comply with. Like I mentioned earlier, that does not mean they will not work - we just don't believe they will. This portion of your upgrade should be relatively painless though - the sticks are relatively inexpensive, and come with a 30 day money back guarantee from OWC, if they do not work. So worst case scenario is you pay shipping there and back to test them."

My main problem is that I live in Japan, so the time and cost of shipping works against me to "experiment" with things like this. Hence, I am posting here in hopes of finding out more from those of you who have experience. I especially would love to hear from you Wallstreet owners who also have a G3 accelerator inside your Wallstreet, as they would tell me the exact RAM I need (assuming you have 512MB total in your machine).

I look forward to reading your thoughts and experiences.

Thank you.

 

[theos911]

500MHz G3 accelerator

So that would be a "PowerLogix Blue Chip G3 500" or a "Sonnet Crescendo/WS G3 500"?

One nice thing about the WS's & choosing CPU upgrades is that you don't have to choose between fast G3 and not-as-fast G4. The G3 & G4 upgrades both top at 500MHz, making the G4, if available, the easy winner. btw - If you come across a G4 WS upgrade.. Let me know!!!

As for the RAM issue:

The bus runs at 83 or 66. Even the 66MHz ones came with (I think) PC100 RAM. The bus can only be cranked so high by an accelerator before things go awry. Either way, I'd guess at best it is 100 Bus at 5x Multiplier. PC 100 would work. Go with 133, and you can be sure your bases are covered. As for the type, I'm not sure. I've heard the term "Low-Density", but idk exactly what that means. (I believe it is a greater # of smaller chips, but I'm not sure. :?: ) I'm glad you posted this as I still need to max my WS's RAM, and the input will be helpful.

EDIT- Forgot, Allegro also had their "Super Cool" G3 500.

 

[JDW]

Thanks for your reply, theos911. The upgrade I have been considering the purchase of is the Sonnet 500MHz G3. I've not considered a G4 as seriously as a G3 upgrade because I am happy to stick with OS 8 and OS 9 on the Wallstreet (no need for OS X on such an old machine). The G4 is more suited for OS X, as discussed here:

http://lowendmac.com/misc/03/1020.html

I too have been searching for the ALLEGRO. In fact, I wrote an email to Wegener Media, who once were distributors of the ALLEGRO. They even have the ALLEGRO web page still up here:

http://www.wegenermedia.com/wllst500.htm

That web page said they stopped selling the ALLEGRO due to "issues on the Motorola chipset." Confused by that, I inquired further with them. Dave (at Wegener Media) wrote me the following reply:

We quite mfr'ing the Wallstreet upgrade mainly due to issues with the Wallstreet's power management.. THe PMUs are wearing out (14yrs is ancient in technological terms), so they aren't reliable. The process is rather time consumptive for a single unit, and as sales are nonexistent, we quit supplying them...
The Allegro was really the best, as it was fast and cool. Unfortunately, we only got the bugs worked out right at the point that the market softened.. So it actually sold less than any of our other upgrade cards..

Of course, his reply only resulted in more questions in my mind. For truly, the G3's used in these upgrade cards were of a newer, lower power lot than the older version G3s that Apple used. And that is precisely why the ALLEGRO ran cooler than the stock CPU (or so the LEM article says). Therefore, I don't see why the Allegro would put more strain on the PMU than the stock CPU! But I didn't inquire further with Dave about that to know for sure.

Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread...

I thought that a PC133 SODIMM would do it, but I didn't know about the "2-sided" part. If any of you would happen to have single sided RAM in the 256MB size, and PC133 speed, I may be interested in buying it from you.

Also, this web page seems to indicate that there is no such thing as a single-sided 256MB "low density" SODIMM:

http://www.allmemoryupgrades.com/pc133sodimm.html

 

[JDW]

Well after a considerable amount of Googling, I have found my answer:

http://www.applefritter.com/node/10169#comment-44810

http://lowendmac.com/pb2/wallstreet-powerbook-g3-i.html

Okay, "almost" found my answer. I now know what will work. But alas, searching for that Kingston part number (KTA-PB100/256) only yields high density SO-DIMMs, not the low density versions shown on Sonny's photos. Any ideas on where I can buy these would be appreciated.

 

[theos911]

Thanks for your reply, theos911. The upgrade I have been considering the purchase of is the Sonnet 500MHz G3.

Awesome, that is the easiest to work with. You still need to do the ROM Load & Dump depending on how new/old it is. Luckily, there is no fiddly cache enabling software needed for either 9 or X. One issue is... and it can be a massive issue if you have a 2nd Gen wallstreet: If your upgrade is used, and it got its ROM from a 1st Gen PDQ and it was not one of the ones that came with a ROM from sonnet(Which all came with a R2 ROM IIRC) then there is a chance that is has a 1st. gen ROM loaded, which will not work with the video hardware in a 2nd gen WS. It won't hurt your WS, but you'll have an effectively brick'd upgrade unless Sonnet stil offers the ROM wiping service. On that note, I don't see why we couldn't just find the write enable line and manually do it ourselves, but that is over my head... As far as I know, their ROM dumping utility will not overwrite an older ROM over a newer ROM and more importantly in this case... a Newer over an Older. Hopefully, you won't have this issue. ) Here is a thread about the issue. https://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24079

If you can, be sure to get CL2 (2-2-2) RAM. This is the proper CL for the WS.

Hidden in this article behind the obvious stuff is some nice Tech info. http://www.techedgeezine.com/cart_mac_pb1.html

Currently relevant part:

I slipped a Viking Components MPG3/256L low profile 256 MB module into Slot 1 and a standard MPG3/265 256 MB module into Slot 2. These are PC-100 CL2 SODIMMS and while the system bus on a Wallstreet is only 66 MHz, the CL2 factor of this module is the important feature! CL2 means that this module has the fastest refresh speed of 2-2-2 (3-2-3 is the slowest), important for optimizing program or basic operations performance in any computer and every bit helps for an older slower bus design. You should try to buy only CL2 RAM for any Mac for that matter, ask whether you are getting 2-2-2 when you're buying RAM.

 

[coius]

You need Double-sided Low-Density (more than 4 chips per side) for a total of 256MB.

So if you get a compatible 256MB SoDIMM, it needs to be PC-100 SoDIMM with 8 chips per side. Double-Sided 4 chips per side is High-Density.

I have experienced this. I have 4 of these DIMMs but they are all used. I found that the only type of 8 chips total for 256MB I have come across are all high density, so you would only get 128MB. My Pismo will use both high density and low density RAM, but the lombard has the same issue as the PDQ. Required double-sided low-density.

Easy way to tell compatibility if the physical chips are from Hynix/Kingston/major brands, has 16 chips totaled from both sides.

You will notice that 512MB High-Density takes 16 chips on each side and basically puts 256MB Per-side.

Hit ebay and look for 256MB Chips that are PC-100 (!Avoid 133, most 256MB even if both sides are high density if the 256MB is 133Mhz!), use both sides, and have 16 chips total. Easy way. I will look for some chips on ebay and post links

EDIT: This will work for you just fine.

 

[theos911]

Yes, but it is china.....

Would this work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/256MB-PC100-SODIMM-144-PIN-Low-Density-Laptop-Ram-Memory-SDRAM-1-YEAR-WARRANTY-/280750307123?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415e05b733 The listing even claims compatibility with the PDQ, but I want to ensure.

If so, I'll gladly pay the extra 2$ to get it before Christmas.

 

[coius]

Yup. pretty much same thing. Look for major memory chip makers. they usually set the specs for RAM and anytime you see something like Memorex/Kingston/Crucial/Hynix you will 99% of the time be compatible with almost everything.

 

[theos911]

They were Memorex, so I went ahead and snagged both. Max RAM and my new CF card should give MintPPC a new lease on life. (Once I re-install and remember to use ext4 this time...)

 

[JDW]

If you can, be sure to get CL2 (2-2-2) RAM. This is the proper CL for the WS.

I had been eyeing this Kingston RAM, but it doesn't say anything about CL2 (2-2-2):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110523542421&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123#ht_17312wt_1413

I wrote the seller to confirm.

As to the ROM and VIDEO issues you mentioned, I am not seeing anything about "video problems" in the Sonnet Product FAQ:

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=364&expand=_a1_a3_a2_b75_b234&action=a1#a1

You'll also note that even though the FAQ and Manual are on that page, there is nothing in the "Firmware" section. Since Sonnet doesn't support this upgrade card anymore (and certainly won't do a ROM upgrade for it), I am not sure if the card is worth the risk. I might be paying for "a brick" as you say.

 

[theos911]

Well, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Only the very early upgrades needed a ROM dump. The later ones shipped with it. Assuming you do end up with one that needed a dump, there is still only a 50/50 chance it'll be relegated to R1 only. Even then, I'm sure there is SOME WAY to overwrite the ROM. The nice thing being, if the overwrite is a failure, you didn't lose anything.

 

[JDW]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/256MB-PC100-SODIMM-144-PIN-Low-Density-Laptop-Ram-Memory-SDRAM-1-YEAR-WARRANTY-/280750307123?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415e05b733 The listing even claims compatibility with the PDQ, but I want to ensure.

They were Memorex, so I went ahead and snagged both. Max RAM and my new CF card should give MintPPC a new lease on life. (Once I re-install and remember to use ext4 this time...)

Well, I see I missed out on a good deal for the RAM I needed. But at least there is another auction for the same RAM here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/256MB-PC100-CL2-16x8-144-pin-Sodimm-Laptop-Memory-/230621403706#ht_2998wt_840

But will these fit? On one side of the PowerBook G3's CPU card, sure. But the other side of the CPU card requires a low-profile SO-DIMM. These are only "semi" low-profile.

 

[JDW]

Only the very early upgrades needed a ROM dump. The later ones shipped with it. Assuming you do end up with one that needed a dump, there is still only a 50/50 chance it'll be relegated to R1 only.

The serial number of the Sonnet card I have the opportunity to purchase is A2388. According to the Sonnet FAQ, any serial higher than A1950 was built after February 2002. Taking into consideration that the Wallstreet PDQs (the newest and last of the Wallstreets) were discontinued in May 1999, what are your thoughts about this Sonnet card and the ROM? (I don't know how you define "very early upgrades," which is why I ask.)

 

[theos911]

I don't define very early. Even now, I'm questioning myself. I thought the info about them stopping to need a ROM dump was in the keeping current article. I don't see it there, so, I want to find where I read before I continue to make judgments.

What I recall,but can't find my source any longer: Was at some point they had enough ROMs to ship with them. However, I'm thinking Sonnet didn't require a return of the old CPU... thus they wouldn't get ROMs back... I think my brain is blending two or three different companies.

Though I'm not sure of when/if if they stopped using the ROM dump tool, I am certain about that video issue if that thread is to be given any credibility.

Looking at LEM for the video hardware:

1g- ATI 3D Rage LT

2g- ATI Rage LT Pro

The 1g also had a 12 inch model that was 800x600 and only had 2MB of VRAM as opposed to 4.

It would make sense to use 1 ROM for a 1g WS's, even if that means supporting two different VRAM configurations, since it is the same GPU controller. (What I mean is, I doubt there are 2 1g ROMs.) However, is is definitely likely that the 1g GPU part of the ROM is quite different from the 2g GPU part of the ROM. With that possibility in mind, I am inclinded to trust the thread mentioned above on the differeing ROMs.

In short: I can't tell you when they stopped using the ROM dump, if at all :'( * However, I can tell you that I trust the video/ROM issue does exist. The easiest way to test would be to try a 1g CPU in a 2g WS.

*until I do more research... when I get back from school today.

 

[JDW]

*until I do more research... when I get back from school today.

I certainly appreciate your help thus far and anticipate any further research you might be able to dig up. (If you have time.) :beige:

I would also appreciate hearing your thoughts in my earlier post, which asks about whether those SO-DIMMs will truly fit in both slots on the CPU card. For truly, they are not the lowest profile SO-DIMMs I've seen. And yet they are not full height SO-DIMMs either.

Thank you!

 

[theos911]

I think they will fit. I've only seen two heights of RAM. The high and low. I only have one high and that was the apple offered 128MB upper slot upgrade.

This is the Tall chip.

...

and it turns out Ubuntu doesn't like my camera or my card reader. I'll need to re-install windows on a thumb drive or something to get the pictures...

/disapointed

EDIT- I also need windows to Jailbreak my iPod, so this time, the re-install is likely to happen )

 

[JDW]

Well, I wrote to Sonnet last night in hopes if getting the definitive word on their 500MHz Crescendo G3 CPU upgrade for the Wallstreet PowerBooks. Here is what I wrote to them:

Dear Sonnet Technical Support,
Please forgive me for burdening you with this question, since it does pertain to one of your long obsolete products. But after having spent many, many hours online in vain trying to find the answer to my question, and after having numerous discussions in several online forums, I have no choice but to turn to you for advice.

I have a Macintosh PowerBook G3 PDQ 266MHz. I wish to get your 500MHz G3 Crescendo/WS CPU card to work with it. (It is definitely the G3, not the G4.) Please know that I have reviewed your online Manual and FAQ here:

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=364&expand=_a3_a2_b75_b234_a1_b227&action=b155#b155

http://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/crescendo_ws_qsg.pdf

My question is, what must I do to the CPU card to restore the ROM into its pre-flashed state? The problem is that the CPU upgrade was previously flashed on another PowerBook G3, and for whatever reason there is no video at boot time, as described in these Sonnet customers:

https://www.macgurus.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112041&postcount=6

http://www.daniweb.com/hardware-and-software/apple/apple-hardware-and-devices/threads/86015

Since the product is obsolete, it would not appear possible to send the card back to you in order to restore the ROM. Therefore, is there any means of my restoring the ROM myself (to its pre-flashed condition)?

The serial number on the sticker on my 500MHz G3 CPU card is: A2388

I no longer have the stock 2GB hard drive that originally came with the PowerBook G3 Wallsteet, if that matters. I only mention it because one of your customers online said that they could only use your Upgrade Software 1.2.1 on a Wallstreet that had the stock hard drive. I can only hope they were mistaken on that point.

I look forward to your reply.

Thank you for your time and kind consideration.

Neil from Sonnet Customer Service kindly responded a few hours later, as follows

Here's the bad news for you. There is nothing you can do to restore the CPU upgrade to it's pre-flashed state. That required a special piece of hardware and we don't have it anymore. I think it was scrapped years ago. So there is no way to restore the CPU to a virgin state so you can re-flash it with the proper ROM.

Of course, I've not yet purchased the Sonnet CPU upgrade yet, but I wrote to Sonnet going under the assumption that the CPU card had already been flashed on a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet. And since it is not known if the PowerBook was in fact a PDQ edition, there is no way to know if it wouldn't have the same "dead video" as reported by a couple other users in those other threads. And since Sonnet says restoring the ROM to its pre-flashed state is now impossible, the only way to safely know if the CPU upgrade would work is if you know 100% that the upgrade had been flashed in the same exact "revision" model as the PowerBook you own.

 

In retrospect it seems quite foolish to me that Sonnet setup the card this way, as it put the support burden on them for reflashing. And now after all these years, it has become impossible to reflash the cards at all.

 

The other unclear point is about the requirement for the "stock 2GB hard drive" that some have reported. Let's say you acquire a Sonnet CPU upgrade that was flashed on another PDQ and you wish to use it on your PowerBook G3 PDQ. You would need to use Sonnet's Installer software, so it would install the appropriate extensions on your machine. But would that installer not work if you lack the stock 2GB hard drive (which many PowerBook G3 users do lack these days)? Or would it simply refuse to reflash the CPU upgrade, which cannot be done anyway once its flashed?

 

All said, I must admit I am rather disappointed.

 

[theos911]

...and the crap has hit the fan :'(

...maybe you could ask if it is possible with an original HDD? They might have said impossible if you don't have the original HDD, but possibly possible otherwise... just stabbing in the dark here...

EDIT- Also, it would probably be best to ensure it was really scrapped. I'm sure you know how there can be ...lets call them... "disconnects" between tech service/PR and what is actually going on.

"Hey Dorris, We get rid of the ROM Flasher?"

"Yup, scrapped it a few years ago."

(While the ROM dumper is really sitting in the back storage area...)

EDIT - I'm nearly positive there is a way to re-flash it now. If a machine could do it, then that means it is re-writable. All we need to do is find the write enable lines and make a programmer board. Which, example dougg3, is quite possible if one knows their stuff.* Our advantage being we can test it on any Ole WS/PDQ cpu board, since they are designed to be the same.

Since the software can write it, It can't be too hard. I'm guessing the need for an apple drive is because it somehow stores the BIOS on a disk cache and loads it to the new CPU card... otherwise, I can't figure where the ROM would be to allow it to boot... thoughts?

*not to imply that I have anywhere near the skillset to do something like that...

 

[theos911]

Anyway, Here are the RAM Pictures:

And my CF->IDE Set-Up