LaCie MO 230 drive for PB 190 or 5300

[trag]

Did Iomega actually market the ZIP drive much, or was it more luck?

I ask, because I looked at buying Iomega stock in the early '90s and it was at about $.30 per share, so I backed off.    Not long after that, the Zip drive took off and the stock shot up to $30.00/share.    If I ever have a time machine....

Point being, when their stock was in the latrine, they may not have been able to afford much in the way of marketing.

 

[Unknown_K]

Iomega made some cash with bournouli drives but that didn't last long so I could see thier stock dropping along with sales. The ZIP drive caught on when external parallel port models came about and when Apple started using them as OEM equipment in the G3/G4 tower lines. But by 2000 CDR was taking over and the 1GB drives were not as popular.

 

[Gorgonops]

Not long after that, the Zip drive took off and the stock shot up to $30.00/share.    If I ever have a time machine....

Sure, it shot up, but it just about as quickly crashed back to earth again because, among other things, the overall poor fundamentals of the company (they basically had *one* hot product in, at this point, nearly 15 years of existence), an SEC investigation into how the stock was was being pumped to novices new to the nascent world of online investing, and the debut of the writable CD drive. (And how it became clear that the ZIP was never going to be a standard for distributing software, that ship had already sailed with the CD.) And then of course it the company ended up taking an even bigger beating when the whole "click of death" thing exploded. Iomega's amazing ride is often mentioned in histories of the Dot-Com crash of a prominent early example of unreasonable investor enthusiasm in tech stocks resulting in a bubble and a crash.

Not to say you can't make money off bubbles, but without a time machine it's really difficult to reliably pull it off.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

"You would have lost your shirt if you'd bought Iomega stock," was what the WSJ tip swapping guys at the neighborhood greasy spoon told me when I said I'd known the Zip was going to be a product of the year long before it was released, but had never even thought of investing. I told them to run the numbers to see just how wrong they were. They came back and asked me to let them know next time I saw something like that coming down the pipeline.

The numbers in that Forbes article are all over the place and make no sense at all unless you'd jumped in late flogging a runaway horse. If peak value at $55/share was 22.2 times higher than its start, the price was therefore up quite a bit from trag's figure to $2.44/share at about the time I really should have put two and two together. Having done so, bought and held the stock through to its lowest ebb at $12/share a few months later that'd be a 391.8% return on original investment in a matter of months. Another way to look at that is that the money pulled out at 12 would have be 491.8% of what went in. I'd have had one sore foot/bruised ass for not having unloaded it at any higher valuation along the roller coaster ride, but it would still have been a killing no matter how you cooked those books.

Best part of the story: when I saw the Handspring Visor PDA with its unique expansion bay in the trade mags I told them to pull the trigger. They didn't because it was an IPO they thought too risky. They all had bruised asses and toes the way that one shook out. I was too poor at that time to invest, but I'd had money for the early Zip investment  .  .  .  dammit! :blink:

 

[QuadPM]

I always have the notion that 1 SCSI MO drive + 1 USB MO drive + few 650MB MO disks = perfect bridging medium for all vintage mac

For those SCSI/powerbook MO drives, one still need FWB HDT/Anubis utility/other SCSI utility under mac OS for automounting/formating the MO disks

(OS X don't need any drivers for those USB MO drive)

There are still plenty NOS MO disks (some even macintosh-formatted) from yahoo auction japan.

 

[Cory5412]

It depends on your outlook. Whatever you happen to have is certainly a good enough bridging tool. I'm personally in favor of networking in general, and running a persistent file server for whatever you need. For me, in particular, I've got a gaggle of older Macs and most of them have a lot of the same software and I regularly need to move documents and data around, so networking is easier from that specific perspective, too.

But, if you are looking for something that's likely to last longest and you don't have an awful lot yet: Almost anything is better than zip. Bernoulli and MO are probably objectively the best 68k-compatible removable storage formats, in terms of reliability and everything, and MO is more available, bigger, more compact (fits internally on man Macs) and better documented.

 

[Charadis]

This thread really took off. And I had no idea what MO was! I appreciate all the information! Finally, the drive arrived, and I used some bits of info from everything I've learned from you guys, and got it running on my 3400c. Spent half the day trying to get it to work though. It's close enough. 

Missed delivery attempt yesterday, Friday, so had to pick up it earlier today at the PO. Hamada-san (my proxy) did not disappoint with the packaging! 



Okay, I got a disk, too.  Actually came earlier this week... 



The weight feels substantial. More than 100grams heavier than the Zip drive. 



About that... I actually picked up another Zip drive, @Trash80toHP_Mini  Looks about the same size...



Ummm...I don't know? 



I'm guessing this is the amount of items Japan has been exporting to me. Proportional to the amount of money they've been receiving from me, as well. Hmm...



So the disk never seems to mount. No matter how many times I reboot. I upgraded the OS from 8.5 to 9.1, and still no change. At the advice of @QuadPM I loaded up a copy of FWB Hard Disk Tools (HDT). It recognized it, and it gave me more options to control the drive, but the system still didn't mount the disk. 

When nothing is even in the drive, I still get a window popup telling me that the disk is unrecognized by the system. But there is no disk, how can that be, Mac OS? :/  System recognizes the drive okay, and it looks like it picks up there is a Sony disk?? But why no mounting?? Arrrgh 



I decided to go a bit extreme, thinking maybe the laser lens is dirty, or something. And, I don't have any floppy drive cleaners, so no worry, @Unknown_K  Probably my excuse to have a little fun...



Reverse



So the LaCie drive is a Fujitsu drive in a nice LaCie shell.  



I wiped down all the areas corresponding to the laser path, and then I reassembled everything back together carefully. 



I don't know if the cleaning helped at all. I ran a low-level format through FWB HDT, but it froze at the end of a "successful" format. I finally decided to pull up Apple's disk drive setup, and ran a successful format that finished without freezing. The disk finally mounted after that!! 

Here is the thing though...it only recognizes the disk, and mounts it, if you have the disk inserted in the drive at time of booting. No matter what, a dialog box always pops up before fully loading the desktop, saying that the disk is unrecognized, and asking if you want to Initialize it. If a disk is inserted, the two options are "Cancel" or "Initialize." If no disk is inserted, the two options are "Eject" or "Initialize." If you can with a disk inserted, desktop loads and the disk mounts. And if you try to eject, the disk disappears from the desktop, but the drive does not actually eject the disk. 

After 7 hours (well, I had lunch, too..), I finally solved the problem...I found software from LaCie on the Macintosh Garden, called "Silver Lining," which loads an "updated" driver to the MO disk. The catch is, the disk has to load at boot in order for the driver to be loaded. Or else, if you try to insert the MO disk after boot, it does not even get mounted. 

I posted a demo of how this works on YouTube. At boot, drive scans disk, Silver Lining driver is run, MO disk ejects. Afterward, the drive works normally, with exception of that dialogue box that always pops up before fully loading the desktop. 

If anyone who has one of these drives, or similar, and knows the correct extension so that the system doesn't have to rely on having a disk inserted to read the driver, could you chime in, please??

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

It depends on your outlook. Whatever you happen to have is certainly a good enough bridging tool. I'm personally in favor of networking in general, and running a persistent file server for whatever you need

Networking is definitely the handiest, if you're handy at networking and your setup is fairly stable. Hooking stuff every once in a while over a printer port/cable setup with a Compact is easy enough, but for a rotating collection spread around the joint, I think networking is a massive PITA.

But, if you are looking for something that's likely to last longest and you don't have an awful lot yet: Almost anything is better than zip.

If you're looking for long term data storage, I'll grant you that many things are better than Zip, some far better. But for easy transfer of most files that won't fit on a floppy, Zip is as good as it gets for a large/diverse collection of old Macs and easily bridges new to old

Ubiquity has a quality all its own however. If Zip weren't the most practical solution for file transfers Apple wouldn't have made factory them options, upgrade kits or bone stock equipment (G3AIO) on the majority of models from the 6400 thru the Quicksilver. Zip equipment, anything but SCSI Internal drives or Zip 250 external SCSI drives are very reasonably priced and media cost and availability go to the Zip by a landslide.

You hate 'em, I love 'em and there are a lot of people in between, but the haters of just about anything at all speak up far more often and much more loudly than the lovers, especially so on the Wild Wild Web.

Back on topic:

Very cool toys, Charadis! Now that you've got both Zip and MO modules for the 3400/5300/190 bays, you'll have to let us know which makes your retroMac experience easier and why after you've wound them out a bit. Have you got desktop versions of either?

 

[Charadis]

Back on topic:

Very cool toys, Charadis! Now that you've got both Zip and MO modules for the 3400/5300/190 bays, you'll have to let us know which makes your retroMac experience easier and why after you've wound them out a bit. Have you got desktop versions of either?

Haha, thank you! When the MO drive is set up, it’s an okay experience. But working it out is enough headache for one day. Zip has an advantage of already having drivers with the OS    

Picked up a Kanga recently, you may have seen the auction up before: 

https://m.ebay.com/itm/-/223014088864?_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc#vi__app-cvip-panel

I’ll post more about that in my Conquest thread when I receive it tomorrow (eta), but I’m wondering if there would be any changes/issues in compatibility or performance to the drive....I’ll post an update when I’ve had time to try it. 

Right now, the MO has one advantage of the newness factor (for me anyways). Currently have no desktop versions of either, but my Wallstreet has a Zip module so it may be more practical for usage at this time. 

 

[olePigeon]

http://bitcider.com/content/f/Fujitsu Magneto Optical Software 2.3.8/MDF_2.3.8.image.bin

Here's the software for your drive if you don't have it already.  Compatible with System 7.1 or newer.

 

[Charadis]

http://bitcider.com/content/f/Fujitsu Magneto Optical Software 2.3.8/MDF_2.3.8.image.bin

Here's the software for your drive if you don't have it already.  Compatible with System 7.1 or newer.

Wow thanks a lot!! I was looking all over and thought maybe the software with the Fujitsu Dynamo230 might be worth giving a shot. Currently out of town, but I’ll put this on the system as soon as I get back! Do you have the same drive? 

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Zip has an advantage of already having drivers with the OS   

Forgot to point that out as well, Apple supported Zip BIG TIME.

+1 more for Zip

Right now, the MO has one advantage of the newness factor (for me anyways). Currently have no desktop versions of either, but my Wallstreet has a Zip module so it may be more practical for usage at this time. 

New is cool, convenience is way cooler. Get External SCSI and USB Zip drives and you'll be covered from Plus thru current, dongle infested "Apple products."

edit: hey, BMOW! how about adding Iomega Guest along with SCSI-Probe to your universal II series boot SIMM?

 

[QuadPM]

On 2018/6/17 at 11:22 AM, Charadis said:

This thread really took off. And I had no idea what MO was! I appreciate all the information! Finally, the drive arrived, and I used some bits of info from everything I've learned from you guys, and got it running on my 3400c. Spent half the day trying to get it to work though. It's close enough. 

Missed delivery attempt yesterday, Friday, so had to pick up it earlier today at the PO. Hamada-san (my proxy) did not disappoint with the packaging! 

View attachment 23726

Okay, I got a disk, too.  Actually came earlier this week... 

View attachment 23728

The weight feels substantial. More than 100grams heavier than the Zip drive. 

View attachment 23736

About that... I actually picked up another Zip drive, @Trash80toHP_Mini  Looks about the same size...

View attachment 23735

Ummm...I don't know? 

View attachment 23729

I'm guessing this is the amount of items Japan has been exporting to me. Proportional to the amount of money they've been receiving from me, as well. Hmm...

View attachment 23730

So the disk never seems to mount. No matter how many times I reboot. I upgraded the OS from 8.5 to 9.1, and still no change. At the advice of @QuadPM I loaded up a copy of FWB Hard Disk Tools (HDT). It recognized it, and it gave me more options to control the drive, but the system still didn't mount the disk. 

When nothing is even in the drive, I still get a window popup telling me that the disk is unrecognized by the system. But there is no disk, how can that be, Mac OS? :/  System recognizes the drive okay, and it looks like it picks up there is a Sony disk?? But why no mounting?? Arrrgh 

View attachment 23724

I decided to go a bit extreme, thinking maybe the laser lens is dirty, or something. And, I don't have any floppy drive cleaners, so no worry, @Unknown_K  Probably my excuse to have a little fun...

View attachment 23725

Reverse

View attachment 23727

So the LaCie drive is a Fujitsu drive in a nice LaCie shell.  

View attachment 23733

I wiped down all the areas corresponding to the laser path, and then I reassembled everything back together carefully. 

View attachment 23732

I don't know if the cleaning helped at all. I ran a low-level format through FWB HDT, but it froze at the end of a "successful" format. I finally decided to pull up Apple's disk drive setup, and ran a successful format that finished without freezing. The disk finally mounted after that!! 

Here is the thing though...it only recognizes the disk, and mounts it, if you have the disk inserted in the drive at time of booting. No matter what, a dialog box always pops up before fully loading the desktop, saying that the disk is unrecognized, and asking if you want to Initialize it. If a disk is inserted, the two options are "Cancel" or "Initialize." If no disk is inserted, the two options are "Eject" or "Initialize." If you can with a disk inserted, desktop loads and the disk mounts. And if you try to eject, the disk disappears from the desktop, but the drive does not actually eject the disk. 

After 7 hours (well, I had lunch, too..), I finally solved the problem...I found software from LaCie on the Macintosh Garden, called "Silver Lining," which loads an "updated" driver to the MO disk. The catch is, the disk has to load at boot in order for the driver to be loaded. Or else, if you try to insert the MO disk after boot, it does not even get mounted. 

I posted a demo of how this works on YouTube. At boot, drive scans disk, Silver Lining driver is run, MO disk ejects. Afterward, the drive works normally, with exception of that dialogue box that always pops up before fully loading the desktop. 

If anyone who has one of these drives, or similar, and knows the correct extension so that the system doesn't have to rely on having a disk inserted to read the driver, could you chime in, please??

Charafis, Try using anubis utility(another SCSI Utility), that's what I'm using right now. On bootup, its extension will scan all SCSI devices connected & turned on and auto load the driver even when no MO disk is inserted

another more updated candidate will be hard disk speedtool

Both are available on macgarden

Good luck withyour new adventure

 

[Cory5412]

You hate 'em, I love 'em and there are a lot of people in between, but the haters of just about anything at all speak up far more often and much more loudly than the lovers, especially so on the Wild Wild Web.

Hate is an awfully strong word here. I don't hate Zip. I even have a couple of them, and I happily used a few Zip mechanisms back in the day, too. It has yet to do me wrong, but I know for a fact it will one day, so I'd rather use almost anything else.

MO has one of the better mixes of flexibility, ubiquity and findability, and cross-platform and cross-generation compatibility, with IDE, Firewire, SCSI, and USB mechanisms being available and usable in a variety of systems, and being well documented. (vs. Bernoulli in particular, which in theory should be a good option, but that's only available for SCSI systems, has a lower overall capacity, and can be more difficult to find.

Networking, where feasible, is very better. There are ways to bridge wireless networks to old Macs and with some cleverness, rewiring home phone lines for appletalk/phonenet can be done.

Anyway, consider the occassional warning against Zip as exactly what it is: A reminder that Zip is provably one of the least reliable superfloppy/cartridge data formats.

It's handy and it served lots of people really well - until it ate their data.

 

[Unknown_K]

I never had a Zip100 drive or disk go bad on me, but I take care of my equipment better then most people. MO is by far a better more reliable format (which is why hospitals used them for archiving important data for example). Back in the day most everybody had a zip drive so trading files between friends or more importantly work and home machines (before cheap CDR and way before USB keys).

 

[Charadis]

http://bitcider.com/content/f/Fujitsu Magneto Optical Software 2.3.8/MDF_2.3.8.image.bin

Here's the software for your drive if you don't have it already.  Compatible with System 7.1 or newer.

You, sir, are an amazing human being. This software fixed my issues with the MO drive, and there is no more dialogue box after boot up! Now, it just works like a regular drive, the way it is supposed to. I can finally enjoy it the way it was made to be. Thanks so much for sharing this here. 

Forgot to point that out as well, Apple supported Zip BIG TIME.

+1 more for Zip

New is cool, convenience is way cooler. Get External SCSI and USB Zip drives and you'll be covered from Plus thru current, dongle infested "Apple products."

edit: hey, BMOW! how about adding Iomega Guest along with SCSI-Probe to your universal II series boot SIMM?

Well, I have an update on which I prefer now. It would have to be.....bum bum bum.....MO. Even with the OS support, I still ended up having to download the latest Iomega drivers to get it to recognize my old IBM/PC format Zip disks on Mac OS 9.1. However, it was amazing to find old files I stored away in one of these Zip disks I saved from ages ago (around 2001 or 2002)!!

Now, the issue....click of death. I was able to recover a few of the main files I wanted (thankfully!) before the disk now seems to have issues even mounting. At some point, the disk kept clicking/whirring in sequence until finally, a dialogue box would pop up telling me there was something wrong. I looked it up and read all about the click of death. 

I opened up a brand new, never used (factory sealed) Zip disk 100 and formatted it to Mac. Works better than the IBM formatted disk I used originally. Haven't yet tried to open any of the drives to see if there is anything wrong with the heads that I could visually tell, but I'm not thinking about investing heavily into the format. 

Charafis, Try using anubis utility(another SCSI Utility), that's what I'm using right now. On bootup, its extension will scan all SCSI devices connected & turned on and auto load the driver even when no MO disk is inserted

another more updated candidate will be hard disk speedtool

Both are available on macgarden

Good luck withyour new adventure

Thank you for the recommendation! The file that @olePigeon provided actually solved my issue very satisfactorily. So far, the adventure is going pretty well, definitely getting a kick out of the exploration process! I even used the disk as a startup up disk...noticeably slower, but works very well. 

Hate is an awfully strong word here. I don't hate Zip. I even have a couple of them, and I happily used a few Zip mechanisms back in the day, too. It has yet to do me wrong, but I know for a fact it will one day, so I'd rather use almost anything else.

I'm actually experiencing issues with the internal Zip drives I have. I explained to @Trash80toHP_Mini above, but I don't know if it's because the disk I tried to use is pretty old (early 2000s, and IBM/PC formatted), the drives aren't very IBM/PC format friendly, or if there is issue with the drive itself. I was able to pull some files off an old disk though. Not planning on investing heavily into the format though 

 

[1400man]

FYI, the trick with HDT is to go into the FWB tools control panel and check the removable checkbox for your MO drive's SCSI ID. This tells it to auto-mount MO media. Had to do it with an Olympus MOS360 that I didn't have proper drivers for. 

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

C, sorry I lumped you in with the haters. Some folks can talk about nothing but the click of death. Sometimes I wonder if they ever used a Zip. I had my second drive replaced under warranty, but like you , I dealt with it for the production glitch it was and moved on.

MO sounds fabulous, was a drive module for the 1400 ever made?

 

[1400man]

I've looked but haven't found one. Not sure if it existed. I know Logitec (not to be confused with Logitech!) sold them in Japan for the 5300/3400, but not the 1400. Incidentally, Logitec also made MO kits with bezels for almost all of the PMG4s. 

Edit: FYI, the going rate on Yahoo Japan for a USB 2.0 or SCSI MO drive is around $30. Add about $35 for EMS shipping to the US. Sometimes you can find them with *both* USB2 and FW400, but those tend to be on the pricey side. 

 

[olePigeon]

If they made a Syquest drive for the 1400, you might be able to transplant an MO drive into it from a different module.  I've found that the MO drives are fairly interchangeable with anything Syquest (even their OEM cases.)