SE/30 + Retr0brite and disassembly

[daver_cl]

Hey folks,

A few questions on the retrobrite process before I go headstrong into this:

1: I plan on using the gel mixture, but only because I don't want to chip/ruin the inside of my SE/30 case. Is the gel method more prone to the uneven cleaning? Is the submersion process superior in any way?

2: Will the mixture damage labels? I suppose I could cover them with plastic and painters tape... Should I remove apple logos, and if so what's the best way to ensure they'll go back on?

3: Does anyone know of instructions on how to disassemble the SE/30 to get the front panel off? I'm nervous about the CRT, and just ruining something in general.

4: Do the keyboard keys come off? I tried using a butter knife but they didn't pop off easily, so I left it be.

I've seen some answers about these regarding other models, but I just want to make sure before I chemically alter my lovely SE/30. Thank you! :b&w:

 

[Osgeld]

1) yes you have to keep the gel moist, if you stay on top of things it wont dry out and leave a splotch

2) dunno about labels, depends on what its made out of, also the apple logo's can rust if they are steel

the rest I dunno

 

[Mac128]

I presume you have searched and read about retrobrite here on 68K. Everything written there applies to the SE/30 equally. I believe JDW has actually done this on his SE/30.

Yes the gel is much more prone to splotching and uneven results, based on numerous reports. You should remove all metal from the case as there is a chance it will react corrosively with the H2O2. All other paper or plastic labels seem to fair well. Take-apart is self explanatory, but there are sources online someone should be able to point you to if you are unsure. Keycaps just pop off, but since the key stalks are old, you definitely risk breakage no matter how careful you may be.

Immersion offers a much more even and reliable process, though requires a much larger space for preparation, and more H2O2. One word of caution regarding what kind of EM coating is lining your SE/30. If you have the shiny, reflective type, instead of the flat gray, rough metallic paint, then you may need to stick with the gel approach as there have been some reports of this coating leaching off the inside of the case during immersion.

 

[daver_cl]

Immersion offers a much more even and reliable process, though requires a much larger space for preparation, and more H2O2. One word of caution regarding what kind of EM coating is lining your SE/30. If you have the shiny, reflective type, instead of the flat gray, rough metallic paint, then you may need to stick with the gel approach as there have been some reports of this coating leaching off the inside of the case during immersion.

This is what I'm most concerned about. The inside is gray, but it also has an oily/metallic look to it. Some of it is scraped away (from people opening/closing the case over the years) and it looks somewhat metallic. I don't want to destroy the inside. I'll post a picture... it's definitely pretty smooth, not 'rough' per se.

Do the apple logos just pop off with a knife or small slotted screwdriver? I've heard they are stickers or something... I basically just don't want to pry it off and ruin it.

 

[Osgeld]

most of the time there is a small pinhole behind the logo, you can pop them out from behind

 

[daver_cl]

Has anyone here disassembled a compact mac? Having read everything (including the official documentation on how to disassemble the SE/30 available here for anyone who might find this topic someday) I can find on disassembly, I'm quite concerned about blowing myself away with the CRT.

I plan to make a discharge tool, but is there any way of knowing for sure? Once the CRT is discharged, is there still any live danger in the machine?

Disassembly is easy, but I'd much rather do it without suffering cardiac arrest if at all possible.

 

[Bunsen]

Search for CRT discharge here and you will find numerous discussion on the topic and suggested safe ways to proceed.

 

[BarnacleGrim]

An old-style scope probe takes a crocodile clip on the other end, and that's an instant discharge tool. I'm not sure if it works with the new probes, which have — ironically — connectors designed to keep people from having cardiac arrests when hooking up their multimeters.

As for keeping the gel moist, what about wrapping it in cling film?

 

[Osgeld]

yea you can use a scope probe, as it is a metal probe with meg-ohms impedance on it, and I have once, but I have some cheap Chinese 17$ free shipping ones, some 50$ + a pair HP or Tektronix I would bee leery about

you could use multimeter probes but then again probes in those nice plastic grips cost money and there is no advantage to most el-cheapo ones

long handled plastic grip screw driver and a length of wire wrapped around it will work, add a big resistor and it wont pop, or just let the thing sit unplugged for a while AFAIK (and someone will dis / prove my claim) its got a bleeder resistor built in that ties the 2 to ground so if left alone it will slowly even out (discharge)

if you choose to rapidly discharge your crt, do it on the ground lugs on the front of the screen, don't do it on the chassis, they are separate, and discharging a fresh crt into the logic ground can cause issues (like death of computer)

the second scary thing is implosion, this is easy to avoid (and I have been pretty loose in removing them), just keep a watchful eye of things that stick out, and remember the neck is fragile, the front is thick and heavy, so support it from the front and avoid banging it into anything in the back

 

[Osgeld]

I had to think about cling film, but my imagination says it will not be even, even if you dont stretch it tight its going to be tight on the corners and be really thin or non existent

If you have not seen it look for topics here that use off the shelf 3% liquid, I did it to my very badly yellow apple //c and while not perfect (it could go for another run) I am very pleased with the results

I like to state that I made nearly 10 gallons of the stuff for less than 7 bucks with a trip to the "dollar tree", and still have almost a half lb of oxy boost

it just takes more time and light

as far as the insides, yea liquid might cause bubbling of the RF shield paint , when I do my SE I am thinking about doing a thin coat of spay on "plasti-dip", if you dont get it on too thick or let it set too long it peels off, although I have not tested it

 

[Mac128]

The inside is gray, but it also has an oily/metallic look to it. Some of it is scraped away (from people opening/closing the case over the years) and it looks somewhat metallic. I don't want to destroy the inside. I'll post a picture... it's definitely pretty smooth, not 'rough' per se.

This is the kind of inside coating you want to avoid exposing to the H2O2 solution. It's smooth and shiny, and does not add to the thickness of the plastic.

The "safe" kind is a matte finish, slightly rough to the touch, and tends to appear thicker than the casing.

 

[daver_cl]

I'm guessing this is the metallic paint?

 

[Osgeld]

Thanks 128 I had it backwards, my performa 200 has a metallic paint, and since the computer is dead and the bezel has a hairline crack might as well try a couple cautious but not disastrous experiments (best case its still a Frankenstein)

My SE has the rough paint, and spaying that with plastidip would be impossible to remove cause its quite rough on a small scale

anyway here and now, just lay on the gel thick, wipe it off and apply a fresh coat regularly, and keep the light even by moving the pieces around during exposure and you should be fine

but in any case its not a "ronco set and forget" situation, you have to be mindful of it and stay on top of it, when I did my //c I checked on it every 30-45 min

 

[BarnacleGrim]

Not exactly a viable business idea, but it would be neat to build a Retrobrite appliance. A big box lined with UV lights, a turntable for even exposure, and an air humidifier to keep it moist. I can't really see a retrobriting service taking off financially, though.

 

[JDW]

A few questions on the retrobrite process...

This thread answers most of your questions.

In summary:

1) Using the 3% H2O2 "gel" recipe I used, in the manner I used it, produces perfect deyellowing -- no uneven splotches whatsoever. Don't submerge compact Mac cases because you will harm the gray colored coating on the inside of the case.

2) Remove the Apple logo on the front of the SE/30 like I did, don't worry about the other labels. But keep in mind I did not put the gel over my labels (perhaps they got splashed a tad bit during the day, but I did not brush the gel on the stickers deliberately). Doing it the way I did results in NO DAMAGE to the stickers. The only sticker that was a tad bit discolored was the sticker on the bottom of my mouse, and that's because I soaked it in the liquid form of RetroBright all day, and it is a sticker that isn't coated well like the stickers on the back of the SE/30 housing. But honestly, the slightly discolored sticker is on the BOTTOM of my mouse so I won't see it, and it wasn't discolored in a bad looking way anyway, so I don't think about it with any regrets at all.

3) Disassembly of an SE/30 isn't that hard, it just takes about 30 minutes. Just remove all the screws you can see. And the ones holding the CRT are pretty easy to spot. And you really don't need to worry about the CRT as much as some web sites make it out to be. Just turn off the SE/30 and unplug it when you are doing the disassembly.

4) Yes, the keyboard keys come off, no matter what keyboard you have. I used a flat head screwdriver to carefully pry up the keys on my IIgs keyboard. I then immersed the keys in the liquid for of Retrobright (since you don't need much liquid for that, and there is no metal to damage, unlike the inside of the compact Macs housing).

Good luck.

 

[daver_cl]

Hi JDW,

I (think) I saw your photos on flickr... you did an amazing job. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Mac128]

Don't submerge compact Mac cases because you will harm the gray colored coating on the inside of the case.

Do you mean compacts in general or the '87-'91 ones coated with the smooth thin shiny metallic layer (I am want to call it "paint")? Have you read further reports of retrobright harming the original '84-'87, and post '91 matte-gray paint?

From my experience, no one has reported ANY damage from submersion to the matte gray, rough-textured, thick paint coating used on the original 128K through early Plus, some SEs, and again later on the Classics. The only reports I have seen have been from the 1987-1991 SE, Mac Plus, SE/30s and some Classics with the shiny metallic coating.

Also, for what it is worth, no one has ever reported that submersion has damaged ANY paper or plastic labels. In fact I would be somewhat concerned that partially covering one of the plasticized/vinyl agency labels on the back might result in splotchy discoloration, since these labels have been known to yellow as well.

 

[JDW]

...no one has reported ANY damage from submersion to the...

But how many people are out there dunking something as large as a compact Mac case, as opposed to putting the gel on it? Moreover, if there is any metal at all in the gray paint (e.g., metallic specs), it will be affected by the RetroBright process. In other words, metal in paint would make that paint susceptible to peeling off during the RetroBright process, especially when the stronger "liquid" form of RetroBright is used. (I conducted tests on parts with tiny metal pieces prior to my formal deyellowing, so I speak from experience in seeing what RetroBright can do to metal.)

...no one has ever reported that submersion has damaged ANY paper or plastic labels.

I have, even if it was my personal preference NOT to use the term "damage." As mentioned by me in my previous post -- he who hath an ear, let him hear -- the label on the bottom of my ADB mouse was affected by the liquid form of RetroBright. You can see the difference in my BEFORE / AFTER1, AFTER1 shots. I contend that the change to it is "not a big deal." But the fact remains is was forever changed. However, that label was not a "plastic" label from what my eyes can see, and certainly not of the kind that is affixed to the back of the SE/30. Hence the mouse label had less protection from the powerful effects of the RetroBright liquid. This information therefore needs to be taken into consideration when deyellowing something that has an unprotected paper label attached, especially when using the LIQUID form of RetroBright. And since I did not glob the gel all over my SE/30 housing labels during my deyellowing process, I cannot say what would happen to them if someone dunked the entire case all day or for multiple days at a time. Maybe they would be okay because they are plastic labels. I simply cannot speak from experience on that.

So if someone wants to deyellow the labels on the back of their SE/30, by all means! I can only tell what I myself did and what worked well for me, which indicates what may work well for others. However, I wish to encourage more of you to use RetroBright (gel or liquid) on your own Macs. There appear to be only a tiny minority among us here on 68kMLA who are actually doing it. Sure it takes time! But it works wonders, so it's worth it. It's not like I'm Mr. Freetime either. I have a full time job like the rest of you, with a family, with numerous obligations that eat my time even on the weekends. I simply have to MAKE TIME to do these things (as well as post here). But it is time worth spending, so I encourage more of you to make the time to do it (and report back here with photos, of course).

The more people who try deyellowing on Compact Macs, the more useful information that can be presented to the community here in this forum. I look forward to seeing more of that.

 

[basalgangster]

Retrobrite can have damaging effects on colored labels and logos. I recently de-yellowed all the plastic parts on the outer case of a 8100. The colored apple logo on the front lost its colors in the process, and is now shiny silver. I think the stripes of color on the apple were a decal, judging from the way it came off. If I had known it would do that, I would have covered it with something first. On the other hand, the silver apple looks very modern, especially on the completely neutral platinum background (with all yellow gone)