-
Updated 2023-07-12: Hello, Guest! Welcome back, and be sure to check out this follow-up post about our outage a week or so ago.
SE/30 + Retr0brite and disassembly
- Thread starter daver_cl
- Start date
JDW
Well-known member
I would like to state for the record that neither of my posts in this thread stated that, simply because it all depends on what flavor of RetroBright you use. For example...
Did you use the liquid or gel form?
What percentage of H202 did you use?
For how many hours did you deyellow under direct UV exposure?
In my experience, with 3% H202 in gel form, no stickers/labels were every damaged even in the slightest bit. But as I stated previously, I did not glob the gel onto the stickers affixed to the back of my SE/30 case either. Therefore, your mileage may vary. But if you do have problems, or even if you don't, please provide details about exactly why kind of RetroBright method you used, as well as the H202 concentration percentage.
Now as to the Apple logo and why you should remove them from the front of the SE/30's housing BEFORE you deyellow, I can say that I removed it not so much because it "was painted" but rather because it is metal underneath that paint. Since RetroBright will react with the metal, that reaction on the metal will bubble off any paint on it. I've seen photos of this in other forums.
daver_cl
Active member
Sorry to continually be paranoid, but I'm currently disassembling my SE/30 and I'm at the point where I need to remove the red flyback suction cup connector. What's the best way to remove it without destroying the CRT? I found a guide online a few days ago but somehow forgot to clip it to Evernote :'(
FWIW, removing connectors from the analog board is almost impossible! I can't fit my hands past the CRT neck to pull 'em out.
FWIW, removing connectors from the analog board is almost impossible! I can't fit my hands past the CRT neck to pull 'em out.
Mac128
Well-known member
What parts would these be? Something coated with the actual metallic paint used inside the early 128/512K compacts and HD20? There have been multiple reports both here and elsewhere of the dunking method not harming that particular coating in any way whatsoever. My own experience has been that the coating is not affected at all. However, this is all moot as daver_cl has the reactive metallic coating as do most SEs.
Also, H2O2 DOES NOT react with ALL metals. If you recall the discussion, the original square Apple logos on the 128K & 512K were immune to being submerged in an H2O2 bath, whereas the newer inlaid Apple logos were made of something highly reactive to the corrosive effects of H2O2. Since H2O2 does not react with stainless steel or aluminum, it was decided that the early square Apple logos were made from more expensive pressed aluminum, and the newer apple-shaped logos from some kind of steel. So it all depends of what the "metal specs" are comprised. I would not be one bit surprised given Apple's use of aluminum chassises for FCC mandated shielding prior to the Macintosh, that the paint they coated the inside cases with wasn't also an expensive aluminum based paint. The later shiny, smooth coating was probably a cost cutting measure (during the greedy Gassee years), as the FCC guidelines were less stringent by then, and it not only looks cheaper, but it probably isn't aluminum either, at least not 100%.
As always, your words of warning or caution are always welcome. Someone making decisions about their equipment should be aware of all potential problems they face when working with such volatile products. Your points about the paper labels are well taken. Then again, those labels will continue to change over time anyway thanks to the adhesive used to apply them and can't really be restored (the best would be to scan them and create replicas). This has also been discussed at length here and elsewhere. They agency labels have also been discussed and are not affected, and as I pointed out, if they are yellowed too, will look pretty bad against a newly de-yellowed case. However, this is for the original 128K through Mac Plus, so one cannot guarantee it on an SE. If the label is not yellowed, then why risk it? If it is yellowed, then test a narrow area along the edge to see how it reacts.
JDW
Well-known member
Dealing with CRT discharging and subsequent disconnection is so easy most of us miss it. I think it was Dr. Tom Lee who once gave this sage advice:
Power-on your SE/30 and crank up the brightness all the way. Yank the cord. Wait a second or two. Now the CRT is discharged and you can pry off the suction cup with a screw driver.
I've tried it, and it works well.
Power-on your SE/30 and crank up the brightness all the way. Yank the cord. Wait a second or two. Now the CRT is discharged and you can pry off the suction cup with a screw driver.
I've tried it, and it works well.
Mac128
Well-known member
The clip under the cup is shaped like an upside down split "T" (or two "L"s back to back and joined at the top), you need to squeeze the near side in-toward the other and then push it up and away, once the clip has cleared the hole. The other clip then comes right out. I usually do it by hand, but in some cases I've used a pair of needle nose pliers. You may need to lift the edges of the red suction cup to determine the orientation of the clip so you know which direction to sqeeze it.
Fortunately the SE/30 has a bleeder-type resistor so discharge should be unnecessary. But Tom Lee's method is worth doing just in case Murphy's Law rears its ugly head.
JDW
Well-known member
True, and I don't always know what kind of metals I am dealing with, so my rule is to avoid metallic parts where possible when deyellowing. I don't remember exactly all the things I tested with RetroBright before I did my SE/30, but I noticed some RetroBright reaction on the metal parts affixed to the INSIDE of my HD20SC when I deyellowed it, but that was minor because it was only a few millimeters where the gel I used sploshed on some of the metal INSIDE the case (I wasn't trying to deyellow the inside). I also did not directly expose that "metal-parts" side of the HD20SC case to UV light either.
beachycove
Well-known member
I haven't disassembled an SE/30 but the Classic and Classic II can have all plastics removed without going to the lengths described with suction cups and the like. The back comes off, obviously, and the front bezel is just screwed to the metal frame, and comes away with removal of several screws. You do need a long screwdriver, mind you.
Is an SE/30 so different?
Is an SE/30 so different?
daver_cl
Active member
it's apart! and i'm still alive!
the CRT is the scariest part. once you're not worried about zapping yourself or snapping the vacuum tube it's pretty easy to take apart.
I bought 12% H2O2 on Amazon – a nice medium between the 3% and 30% solutions I've seen. Once I've gathered the rest of my components I will post results!
I think I'm gonna dunk the keyboard, keys, and mouse, then apply the gel to the SE/30 (I have a IIsi that I'm going to test with). I will be using the Xantham gum approach.
the CRT is the scariest part. once you're not worried about zapping yourself or snapping the vacuum tube it's pretty easy to take apart.
I bought 12% H2O2 on Amazon – a nice medium between the 3% and 30% solutions I've seen. Once I've gathered the rest of my components I will post results!
I think I'm gonna dunk the keyboard, keys, and mouse, then apply the gel to the SE/30 (I have a IIsi that I'm going to test with). I will be using the Xantham gum approach.
daver_cl
Active member
I can't speak for the classic, but there were some screws hidden beneath the analog board assembly. It may be possible to remove them with a super log phillips, but I don't think you'd be able to get around the flyback and capacitors with one. This was my first time, so maybe I'm totally wrong. I followed the Apple documentation and it was fairly easy to remove the 3 main internal components once they were disconnected from each other.
Unrelated: My SE/30 has a 250mb hard drive which was clearly an upgrade from the original. I had originally thought the HDD activity light was broken, but it turns out it was never even connected. Does the light connect to non-stock hard drives? I see two connectors (one 2-pin and one 4-pin) but neither are large enough for the SE/30 HDD light.
It's an "Apple Computer, Inc. Internal 3.5 Inch HDD 250MB SCSI / Firmware ©1993"
JDW
Well-known member
Bunsen, I could be wrong, but I believe it was Mac128 who in this March 2009 post first recommended the displacement method when dunking items as large as a compact Mac enclosure. And subsequently, it was el.Shus who reported in this Feb. 2010 post that he tried dunking his compact Macs housing in the liquid form of RetroBright, using an Ice Tea drum filled with water, although he then reported "peeling" of the shielding inside the housing after 1 day of deyellowing. I don't bring this up to condemn anyone or blast the dunking method (hardly, I think Mac128's displacement idea is brilliant). But these are facts we should ponder when discussing deyellowing and dunking the compact Mac enclosure.
daver_cl
Active member
@JDW
What was the consistency of your gel retr0brite? Mine is really sticky and doesnt' seem to spread evenly. I'm testing on the keyboard now and will try to post results when I'm finished. It doesn't seem as effective as dunking.
I'm trying to think of a way to protect the interior of the compact case so I can dunk... Perhaps if I can mix a slightly more aqueous solution (more a liquid than gel), seal the inside of the case, and fill a tub I can achieve the completeness of the dunk with a more leak-resistant gel.
What was the consistency of your gel retr0brite? Mine is really sticky and doesnt' seem to spread evenly. I'm testing on the keyboard now and will try to post results when I'm finished. It doesn't seem as effective as dunking.
I'm trying to think of a way to protect the interior of the compact case so I can dunk... Perhaps if I can mix a slightly more aqueous solution (more a liquid than gel), seal the inside of the case, and fill a tub I can achieve the completeness of the dunk with a more leak-resistant gel.
JDW
Well-known member
About as thick as a good clear gravy you'd pour over your turkey at thanksgiving. You can physically see that consistency in my gel mix photos. And if you have a look at the description under the photo of me at the table with the ingredients, you can see how much corn starch I applied. The corn starch is what thickens the mix into gel form. If you don't want yours as thick, just use less corn starch. And keep in mind that I used "heat" in my mix, which is required to get the corn starch to effectively thicken the mix.
As to your comments about dunking, it would be best I refrain from offering advice on that. I simply don't have experience with dunking entire cases myself. But my experience with both liquid and gel forms of RetroBright suggests that you may have a hard time to perfectly "seal" the inside of your Mac's housing.
Best of luck to you. Hopefully more among us here at 68kMLA will make the time to deyellow. It's worth it in the end.
daver_cl
Active member
Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but I'm just not getting accurate (or stunning) results with the gel. It's difficult to apply and I think it creates unreliable results because it ends up foaming with the gas emissions. I soaked the keyboard keys and mouse and they looked awesome, and the solution was active for about 24 hours (still reacting).
The keyboard shell is still slightly yellow, and there's now a sort of 'gradient' – some areas are whiter than others, some look totally new, others look still noticeably yellow.
I think JDW is on to something saying that the concentration of H2O2 isn't important – I used up all of my 13% pretty quick and resorted to a bottle of 3%, and the keyboard keys look brand new. Not only is it cheaper, but it's just as effective.
I've sealed the compact case with vinyl tape which is waterproof (for 24 hrs anyways) and I'm gonna take the plunge (no pun intended) and see if I can get away with dunking the case. I think it will produce more impressive results.
The keyboard shell is still slightly yellow, and there's now a sort of 'gradient' – some areas are whiter than others, some look totally new, others look still noticeably yellow.
I think JDW is on to something saying that the concentration of H2O2 isn't important – I used up all of my 13% pretty quick and resorted to a bottle of 3%, and the keyboard keys look brand new. Not only is it cheaper, but it's just as effective.
I've sealed the compact case with vinyl tape which is waterproof (for 24 hrs anyways) and I'm gonna take the plunge (no pun intended) and see if I can get away with dunking the case. I think it will produce more impressive results.
JDW
Well-known member
Let there be no misunderstandings about the gel, you will be actively involved in the deyellowing process for the full day you deyellow with the gel, if you do it properly. By that I mean, I applied and reapplied the gel about once an hour. I did that based on observation and logic. After an hour in direct sun, the gel would dry on my SE/30 housing. And logically, there isn't going to be much deyellowing when the gel is no longer a gel. And so, I reapplied the gel as needed (about once an hour on average), so that the appearance of the item being deyellowed with the gel looked "wet" continually. When it started to look dull, I knew the gel was dried out, so I then painted on another coat. And when I reapplied the gel, I used my paintbrush in a scrubbing fashion to loosen up the dried undercoat so the fresh "wet" gel I was applying would directly touch the plastic.
In effect, I was doing what the liquid form of Retrobright does -- keeping it in contact with the plastic continually. And yes, folks, that means I made multiple batches of the gel throughout the day. I could have made one big batch. But I wanted the most potent form of the gel possible with my 3% H202, and the best way to do that is with a fresh batch, made about once an hour. (About the longest I left any given batch sit was 1 hour 45 minutes.) And if you have a look at my Flickr photos, you see the little glass vial I used, along with the small tupperware tub. It doesn't hold much gel at one time. But I didn't need much because I remade the gel over and over throughout the day.
That, my friends, was the key to my success at getting excellent results with the gel. No unevenness. No gradients. Just a perfect deyellowing job on my SE/30's enclosure and on my HD20SC's enclosure.
In effect, I was doing what the liquid form of Retrobright does -- keeping it in contact with the plastic continually. And yes, folks, that means I made multiple batches of the gel throughout the day. I could have made one big batch. But I wanted the most potent form of the gel possible with my 3% H202, and the best way to do that is with a fresh batch, made about once an hour. (About the longest I left any given batch sit was 1 hour 45 minutes.) And if you have a look at my Flickr photos, you see the little glass vial I used, along with the small tupperware tub. It doesn't hold much gel at one time. But I didn't need much because I remade the gel over and over throughout the day.
That, my friends, was the key to my success at getting excellent results with the gel. No unevenness. No gradients. Just a perfect deyellowing job on my SE/30's enclosure and on my HD20SC's enclosure.
