SCSI to IDE Adapter

[maceffects]

I recently purchased a 50pin SCSI to IDE adapter from eBay.  It appears to have sound connectors to even allow optical drives to function.  My question (to the experts), does it appear that these chips are off the shelf stuff?  In other words, if I sent it out for reverse engineering could everything be sourced?  It appears, that there is at least 1 programmable logic chip.  If that is the case, could it be cracked easily?  I'm perfectly content using it as-is but given that I'm starting to hate SCSI2SD I think it might be a good alternative.  I've never been able to get one  of my 3 different version of the SCSI2SD to actually work.

@joethezombie

@Bolle

@Trash80toHP_Mini

I can post more pictures when it arrives, unless its a nonstarter then I won't bother. 

 

[Cory5412]

It would be super interesting to see a new storage option like this come into existence!

I know this is not what was asked, but:

As an idea/recommendation: It might be worth thinking about adapting directly to SATA, as SATA drives are still being built and just sort of era and timeline wise there are more of them. SCSI Manager 4.3 68ks should be able to address up to 2TB disks, and SATA CD/DVD-ROM drives are still being built and in my experience even ~decade-old SATA optical drives are way better at reading old and failing optical media than what's in old Macs. Being able to use those disks directly on a vintage Mac would be hugely advantage, since it's generally pretty easy to give someone an ISO or a bincue they can burn that has a lot of needed tools on it, compared to floppy images.

I know this also wasn't asked, but:

I'm kind of curious as to what's going on with the SCSI2SD for you. If there's another thread, we should probably take this discussion there, but largely I see SCSI2SD as a more sustainable forward movement for these machines than something like build new adapters for disks that haven't been manufactured in over ten years and are themselves dying off of old age.

Another question that might be worth asking generally is whether or not it's possible to make the SCSI2SD easier, perhaps by having "easy mode firmware" be an option, where the device just presents the entire SD card to the Mac, rather than the options the SCSI2SD 5 series and 6 present today, which are fairly comprehensive, but there's also a lot of nerd knobs a lot of people don't need or want. Perhaps we can ask Inertialcomputing whether that's even remotely possible, maybe as a variant. of the shipping product.

(The main argument against doing that is that SCSI Manager 4.3 and 7.6.1 or better are realistically needed to make good use of volumes over 4GB, which means that the target machines would end up just being SCSI '040s and 601 PowerPCs. Older machines would get benefit out of the SCSI2SD's ability to present separate devices and LUNs or emulate a specific disk and newer ones would get more out of a v6, a PCI SATA card, or a faster-than-stock SCSI disk.)

 

[LaPorta]

I agree, the SCSI2SD is very finicky. I think that one reason for us is that it is not "Mac optimized" and has many options that we either don't need or can't use. Every SCSI2SD I have gotten, I have needed to do something different to make them work. If you start another thread about your SCSI to IDE adapter, I'd love to see what the deal is.

 

[aperezbios]

I recently purchased a 50pin SCSI to IDE adapter from eBay.  It appears to have sound connectors to even allow optical drives to function.  My question (to the experts), does it appear that these chips are off the shelf stuff?  In other words, if I sent it out for reverse engineering could everything be sourced?  It appears, that there is at least 1 programmable logic chip.  If that is the case, could it be cracked easily?  I'm perfectly content using it as-is but given that I'm starting to hate SCSI2SD I think it might be a good alternative.  I've never been able to get one  of my 3 different version of the SCSI2SD to actually work.

..with what? I literally use SCSI2SD's with a variety of macs every single day. Would you mind stating, non-dogmatically, what it is you "hate" about the SCSI2SD? Only then can we sort out whatever issues you have been having.

 

[maceffects]

@Cory5412 I think there are reliable IDE to SATA adapters already, and while those only operate at IDE speeds, it is still useful.  Unfortunately, it is beyond the scope of my skills or outsourcing abilities. 

@aperezbios The reason why I hate them is they simply do not work as they should.  I have v5 versions that work in some machines, but not others.  And on the machines they work on, you must power on the machine, wait for blinking question mark, then restart for it to load.  I have 5 V6 versions I bought thinking they would be better to restore SE/30's.  I use the SCSI2SD Utility exactly as required, but none of my recapped SE/30 machines will recognize the drive.  I used LIDO, Apple utilties, etc.  Frankly, it's a disappointing piece of hardware.  I posted two threads asking for help with zero results over the last couple years.  That's OK though because if I can get a SCSI to IDE adapter off the group it will be superior as it can do optical drives and allow for actual SSDs which will mean a way longer read/write cycle.  The only other SCSI adapter I've used was ArtMix's SCSI>CF adapter that was plug and play.  It simply worked.  Now he is using a modified version of the SCSI2SD that also works as bad as any others. 

 

[Crutch]

I’m surprised because I’ve gotten SCSI2SDs working on probably 5 separate occasions over the last year (on a couple SE/30s, a couple Plusses [which was admittedly tricky, but I think that’s more of a Mac Plus SCSI thing] and a Blackbird or two) thru various means, and one I loaded into an empty HD 20SC chassis and used as an external drive with multiple machines. Maybe I’ve just been lucky. I will say the most foolproof method in my experience is to skip all the formatting utilities and just download a known good disk image like these - then load it up as you like:

http://www.savagetaylor.com/2018/01/05/setting-up-your-vintage-classic-68k-macintosh-using-a-scsi2sd-adapter/

 

[maceffects]

I’m surprised because I’ve gotten SCSI2SDs working on probably 5 separate occasions over the last year (on a couple SE/30s, a couple Plusses [which was admittedly tricky, but I think that’s more of a Mac Plus SCSI thing] and a Blackbird or two) thru various means, and one I loaded into an empty HD 20SC chassis and used as an external drive with multiple machines. Maybe I’ve just been lucky. I will say the most foolproof method in my experience is to skip all the formatting utilities and just download a known good disk image like these - then load it up as you like:

http://www.savagetaylor.com/2018/01/05/setting-up-your-vintage-classic-68k-macintosh-using-a-scsi2sd-adapter/

Perhaps that would be helpful.  I may give that a try since I have these just sitting on the table with nothing happening.  The one I have that I was given had an image already on it, but that's the one that also needs power cycled I think that's v5.  Though, I'll probably still pursue (if viable) SCSI to IDE as it will serve a larger role.

 

[AlpineRaven]

Watching this thread - This is something I would get if the price was right.

Cheers

AP

 

[LaPorta]

Interesting about the v5s. I have three v5s (one 5.0b, two 5.1s). Once all the setup headache is done, they work fine (meaning no restarts or anything). I wonder what is going on with yours. Otherwise, the v6 I have in my PT Pro has been a headache for weeks. All sorts of data corruption issues, header problems, etc. Alex helped me and I found out the newer firmware I was using was unstable. Backdating it actually helped with the corruption issue (so far).

 

[aperezbios]

Interesting about the v5s. I have three v5s (one 5.0b, two 5.1s). Once all the setup headache is done, they work fine (meaning no restarts or anything). I wonder what is going on with yours. Otherwise, the v6 I have in my PT Pro has been a headache for weeks. All sorts of data corruption issues, header problems, etc. Alex helped me and I found out the newer firmware I was using was unstable. Backdating it actually helped with the corruption issue (so far).

The V6 issue mentioned here is a known issue, related specifically to data transfer during synchronous modes, and has been temporarily resolved by a firmware downgrade, to v6.2.5. Please correct me if I'm wrong, LaPorta. Firmware version 6.2.15 will be released in the coming week, with any luck, which will include a proper fix for the data corruption a subset of people have been experiencing with V6. This is the strength of SCSI2SD; It's field-upgradable, and bugs can and do get fixed. V5 has been mass-produced for the better part of five years, and V6 for over three years.  The firmware has evolved significantly over those periods of time, and concluding that it "doesn't work" without understanding nuance is an unfortunate, and wrong, conclusion.

 

[aperezbios]

The reason why I hate them is they simply do not work as they should.  I have v5 versions that work in some machines, but not others.  And on the machines they work on, you must power on the machine, wait for blinking question mark, then restart for it to load.  I have 5 V6 versions I bought thinking they would be better to restore SE/30's.  I use the SCSI2SD Utility exactly as required, but none of my recapped SE/30 machines will recognize the drive.  I used LIDO, Apple utilties, etc.  Frankly, it's a disappointing piece of hardware.  I posted two threads asking for help with zero results over the last couple years.  That's OK though because if I can get a SCSI to IDE adapter off the group it will be superior as it can do optical drives and allow for actual SSDs which will mean a way longer read/write cycle.  The only other SCSI adapter I've used was ArtMix's SCSI>CF adapter that was plug and play.  It simply worked.  Now he is using a modified version of the SCSI2SD that also works as bad as any others.  

There is plenty of evidence to support that they DO work as they should, for everyone but you, so it's only logical to conclude that you're doing something, configuration-wise, that deviates from the necessary configuration, which works for literally thousands of other people who use SCSI2SD V5.1 and V6 with their classic macs.  Since you seem to have already made up your opinion that, in your words, "it's a disappointing piece of hardware", I don't honestly think there's anything I can do to sway your opinion, but I'd like to ask you to take a step, or five, back, and ask yourself if you are truly open to having your opinion changed, because it honestly doesn't seem like you are.

Apple's now-decades-old decision to blacklist all non-Apple-blessed SCSI hard drives is at the heart of the issues you seem to be experiencing. Assuming this forum is the only authoritative place to get help with SCSI2SD on classic macs is also unwise.

To the specific issue of "have to re-set the machine when the question mark shows up", this is a byproduct of the original delay that was programmed in to the V5.0b bootloader, and 99% of machines don't have a problem with this. I have personally never had a V5.0b need to have the 'nodelay' firmware flashed to it, in order to get it work on any of my macs, but it would likely fix your problem. The 'no delay' bootloader became the default on V5.1, and is also the default on V5.5. You also don't state whether you have any other devices on your SCSI bus, nor how you have your SCSI2SD configured, all of which are critical pieces of information that must be known. If you wish to actually resolve your problems, instead of simply complain about them publicly, while simultaneously insulting the efforts of Michael McMaster in the process, I would respectfully ask you to be more analytical.

 

[maceffects]

@aperezbios I don't think there is doubt that they can work.  But if you search this forum you will see many others with issues setting them up.  My issues were posted here:



No device should require so much time and effort to work.  If it works for some, that's great and I'm happy for those users.  After 2 years and various versions, it's not worth the stress to me.  If you wish to have a troubleshooting discussion I ask that you do so in my post regarding SCSI2SD issues.  This threads sole purpose is about my desire to create something new and better.  That is always the goal of this forum to continue to advance and develop. 

 

[Cory5412]

I think there are reliable IDE to SATA adapters already, and while those only operate at IDE speeds, it is still useful. 

I'm sorry for the confusion. That's not what I suggested.

My suggestion was that a SCSI to SATA adapter would be a better idea to build. (EDIT: I'm aware that these exist - my suggestion here is to either clone that design, find a source of them, or design a new one, ideally one with SCSI connections typically used on Macs in tow. Perhaps a board that mounts in a Mac's motherboard SCSI connector and just has a bunch of SATA ports coming out, pre-assigned to each ID, or a db25 external device that spits out eSATA or, IDK, USB so you can just use an off-the-shelf external hard disk, or has a cable going to an external enclosure where SATA disks(s) can be mounted.)

The other option might be to clone or replicate, or request another run of one of the SCSI to CF adapters.

IDE disks that are  "size-appropriate" for anything pre-SCSI 4.3 (030s) are going to be in hot demand from all the other vintage communities that can use them, and newer more reliable IDE hard disks are in the same range as extremely cheap SATA SSDs and low end 2.5-inch laptop hard disks. A CF adapter (or, well, I mean, an SD one) would let you use more reliable media without seek time issues.

IDE to SATA does exist, but most of the systems where it's most relevant can also run SIL3112 SATA cards, 

No device should require so much time and effort to work.

I tend to believe that things should be "easy" to the extent possible, and perhaps a version of this solution is, as I suggested above, a SCSI2SD pre-configured to just pass the entire SD card through as one disk, and then you partition it in the OS you're using as is appropriate, even if that means 7.1 on '030-or-earlier hardware will only get to use ~2GB of data. (Which is still kind of a lot in all reality.)

In my experience, the SCSI2SD does require some configuration, and I think we're as a community making it harder on ourselves by, to be blunt here, not documenting well, in the wiki, what works and how you do things. I suspect that's part of why there's a dozen or so unique web sites with "here's how I did mine". At the very least, an aggregator for those tutorials would be a good start.

This threads sole purpose is about my desire to create something new and better.  That is always the goal of this forum to continue to advance and develop. 

I know I've said this, but I'm going to say it again: IDE isn't it, in this case. IDE disks aren't being made any more, and I'm not even sure that IDE to SATA adapters are, and to be honest, double bridging SCSI -> IDE -> SATA seems altogether like a bad idea in action.

SCSI directly to either some kind of memory card format or to SATA is, I'll argue, the way forward here.

 

[Cory5412]

Otherwise, the v6 I have in my PT Pro has been a headache for weeks. All sorts of data corruption issues, header problems, etc. Alex helped me and I found out the newer firmware I was using was unstable. Backdating it actually helped with the corruption issue (so far).

Idly: I put a v6 in my 8600 and all my issues cleared up when I used a SCSI cable that came with the system, made sure the device was not sitting on any case metal (I painter-taped it to either a big index card or an antistatic bag) and then used silverlining to initialize it with its stock settings. 

TBH, depending on what kind of build your PTP is, you may consider a SATA Card or a newer/bigger server SCSI hdd. (Though: those server SCSI HDDs are not really a long-term sustainable solution, given that the enthusiast RISC UNIX community still needs them and doesn't yet universally have something to replace/augment storage in their machines. Some of those machines can run SAS cards but not all of them.)

 

[LaPorta]

My experience with the v6 has been less than ideal, but I’ve decided to try and tough it out and see if it works. It is in an internal chain with a SCSI Jaz and Zip drive. The SD card has five different partitions on it. Not your usual internal drive replacement for compact Mac scenario. So far, the new firmware has helped. I realized the issue because of missing files, copy errors, and known-good Disk Copy images turning up checksum errors.

As a last resort, I’ve seen a few IDE CF adapters, at least one that fits right in a PCI slot. That would be the most seamless option.

I do agree with Cory: if someone made a SCSI to SATA converter, we could do away with all the nonsense and just pop standard, modern HDs inside. I think people would pay for that convenience, especially for the PPC to G3 and up crowd. I personally think SCSI2SD is a great option for compact Macs, and I personally like it the best in the Mac Portable: saves a ton of weight.

 

[waynestewart]

as well as SCSI2SD there's artmixs SCSI-CF and SCSI-SD adapters. I've never had an issue with them.

 

[maceffects]

I think ArtMix is hard to communicate with given the language barrier.  Otherwise, I'd ask him to run some more batches since they've been gone for years. @Cory5412  I think you are right that if someone did have the skills to make a SCSI to SATA they could do quite well.  And you are right I think the biggest issue is lack of documentation and helpful articles.  For something like this a video may even be helpful.  I'd love to see @JDW to a video on the subject.  But you know what I've been thinking about lately is that we should have a projects page on 68kmla that summarizes project details and current status.  I'm always discovering old projects by accident but the details are often burried in dozens of pages.   I really think something like that would be not only helpful but help showcase the voluminous projects that were created here at 68kmla. 

This post was not meant to bash the SCSI2SD which is a fine device for those it servers.  My frustration simply spilled over into an otherwise useful tech development thread. 

 

[Cory5412]

I do agree with Cory: if someone made a SCSI to SATA converter, we could do away with all the nonsense and just pop standard, modern HDs inside

Just to be clear here, that is already the case on PCI PowerMacs, and as has been noted, is also already the case on IDE-having Macs.

There's no good reason not to put a SATA card in a PTP unless you already have a UWSCSI card in there for some non-storage task and want to use it for both.

SCSI to SATA would be a huge benefit though, in the range of '040 desktops and 601/NuBus PowerPC desktops, which can't run a SIL3112 but can in theory address up to 2TB volumes and use HFS+ for data partitions. 

The other thing here is it's tough to say whether a new, hobbyist-led/designed SATA/SCSI converter would result in "nonsense" or not. At the very least, it seems like there's a handful of use cases that need to be considered. (50/68/SCA, and 2.5-inch.)

Does the PTP have a second SCSI bus in it? If so, you might try putting the SCSI2SD on that bus instead, just to see if that'll help things along.

The v6 is a more difficult beast to tame than the v5 family. Last year, a friend and I were doing some benchmarks, me on an 8600 after he helped me update the firmware, and then he got better results himself after updating the firmware.

I think I need to pull out the 8600 because now I'm wondering about whether anything can be done about some of the software stability issues the scsi2sd can bring about with faster Macs.

In reality though, your PTP and my 8600 would benefit from SATA card installations. (I have a couple on hand at the moment, destined for vtools, I might pop one in for a bit just for fun.) I happen to be using the v6 because I had one laying around and wanted to test it, but it's far from the best possible choice for that group of machines. I'll probably move it to a NuBus machine like my 6100 or Power120, where SATA doesn't exist as an option unless I splash a few hundo down on an existing acard scsi/sata adapter.

as well as SCSI2SD there's artmixs SCSI-CF and SCSI-SD adapters. I've never had an issue with them.

The CF adapters are good. I need to go look again, the SD adapter was a SCSI2SD 4 or 5 clone last time I looked, if they've got something different then that's worth looking at.

The CF adapters were faster than the SCSI2SD, but you pay dearly for the speed and operational simplicity.

The SCSI2SD is arguably one of the more successful mac-led vintage hardware projects and that you can buy the v5.1 for $60 a pop is really impressive for this kind of thing.

The other thing here is that looking at Artmix's site right now, it appears they've shifted gears entirely into manufacturing SCSI2SD clones under different names, I don't see any CF hardware on their site.

If that's the direction even artmix has gone, then I think the issue here is documentation and troubleshooting and not with the scsi2sd itself, given that this vendor is using it to replace their own previous higher performance product.

 

[Cory5412]

we should have a projects page on 68kmla that summarizes project details and current status

That would be a great addition to the wiki. (unrelatedly: I have the test wiki files, I just need to get them on a more reliable server and configure email so people can sign up for accounts.)

EDIT (adding)

I think ArtMix is hard to communicate with given the language barrier.  Otherwise, I'd ask him to run some more batches since they've been gone for years

Missed this.

Yeah, that could be interesting. To be honest, the CF AztecMonster and PowerMonster ended their life, by memory, at more than what a SCSI2SD v6 costs, and while they are technically more performant, it's not, if I remember correctly, by all that much.

We've got a couple different people in the community who are proficient with Japanese, but I think there's a reason Artmix has discontinued all their CF products and replaced them with SCSI2SD clones.

The thing to remember about this particular performance band is that at the upper and of it you have Macs that are (I know i've said this like 7 times) better served by PCI SATA cards, which were manufactured in fairly plentiful bulk, and that can in some cases benefit from going faster. PCI IDE cards also exist, but it would be my fourth choice for a machine from that era, after SATA, upgraded USCSI disk, and SCSI2SD. Then IDE card, then stock disk. (Except stock disk ends up being first choice and in most of my Macs I use them until they kick it.)

At the low end, the SCSI2SD v5 both works well and is performant enough for the needs of 68k Macs, so really you're talking about power user '040s and PowerPCs where the v6 or other faster/bigger options are relevant.

The CF PowerMonster ended its run at $109, which isn't that much more expensive than the SCSI2SD v6, but there's no gaurantee it would start at that same price if Artmix were to start building it again.

If you want to coordinate asking someone to do this, the things I'd consider doing are either setting up a group buy, asking to license or have the design so you can have them built (or so we can have @inertialcomputing build them) or asking what it would cost to buy a large amount of them up front to resell. (Or: what it would cost for them to make a certain number to sell to us directly, but honestly it might be easier to just broker a single bulk order and then resell, and that would be less risk to them as a manufacturer.)