Mac Mini G4, mSATA-to-IDE adapters and Master/Slave

[ArmorAlley]

When putting a mSATA in a 44-pin IDE adapter into a Mac Mini G4, is it possible to set whether it is a master or slave on these adapters. My CF-IDE adapters have a jumper for master. According to Wikipedia, the 4 extra pins are for power. IDE uses 40-pins (including one mechanical one).

When I first put the IDE adapter into the Mac Mini G4, I lost the use of the optical drive. It just wasn't seen, presumably because either cable select set the adapter to master and out-competed the SuperDrive or possibly because the adapter was set to master by default.

Or do I need to look for mSATA-IDE adapters that have jumpers or has anyone here found a way to make mSATA play nicely with the optical drive?

 

[ArmorAlley]

I think I have an answer.
I should actually count how many pins there are.
There are 44 pins on the main block and 4 of these are for power.
The separate block of 4 pins are for jumpers.

Compare 2.5-3.5" HDD Pins

pc help and advice

paulski.com

 

[SiliconValleyPirate]

That is correct, there are 44-pins in the main connector and an additonal 4 pins separated from the main connector by one blank space. The additional 4 pins are the Master/Slave jumper.

I have fitted a couple of MSATA and M.2 SATA to IDE adapters recently in a Mac mini G4 and a PowerBook G4 12” and one if them (I forget which) actually had an additional part of the connector that connected to the 4 jumper pins which I suspect was to force the drive to be Master (I strongly suspect it was in the PowerBook).

I think the jumper pins are intended to be standardised on all drives but I would take tgst with a pinch of salt.

 

[herd]

Some of those adapters have jumpers and some are just set for master--these you can change by soldering small resistors. The last time I used one of these in a mini I had to set the SSD to slave.

 

[trag]

Some of those adapters have jumpers and some are just set for master--these you can change by soldering small resistors. The last time I used one of these in a mini I had to set the SSD to slave.

If the IDE to SATA chip is a newer JMicron JMH330, which is fairly common, then it is always set to Master. You cannot change it to Slave by changing resistors. They also sell a JMH330S which is permanently a Slave but I've never seen one in the wild.

The older JM20330 is changeable with resistors as is the Marvel mumble (8s and 0s and 5s, I think).

 

[trag]

When putting a mSATA in a 44-pin IDE adapter into a Mac Mini G4, is it possible to set whether it is a master or slave on these adapters. My CF-IDE adapters have a jumper for master. According to Wikipedia, the 4 extra pins are for power. IDE uses 40-pins (including one mechanical one).

When I first put the IDE adapter into the Mac Mini G4, I lost the use of the optical drive. It just wasn't seen, presumably because either cable select set the adapter to master and out-competed the SuperDrive or possibly because the adapter was set to master by default.

Or do I need to look for mSATA-IDE adapters that have jumpers or has anyone here found a way to make mSATA play nicely with the optical drive?

Most (all?) of the inexpensive adapters do not have a jumper for setting master/slave. This one is pricey, but actually is built properly with a jumper.

https://www.amazon.com/Ableconn-IIDE-MSAT-2-5-Inch-Converter-Aluminum/dp/B017VQT5YW?th=1

I think StarTech may have a good one as well, but am uncertain.

There is apparently a very long thread about this very topic with respect to the Mac Mini over on OS9 Lives. I saw it referenced in another thread, but there wasn't a link, so if someone hunts it down, I'd love to see a link.

 

[Snial]

Some of those adapters have jumpers and some are just set for master--these you can change by soldering small resistors. The last time I used one of these in a mini I had to set the SSD to slave.

Most (all?) of the inexpensive adapters do not have a jumper for setting master/slave. This one is pricey, but actually is built properly with a jumper.

https://www.amazon.com/Ableconn-IIDE-MSAT-2-5-Inch-Converter-Aluminum/dp/B017VQT5YW?th=1

I think StarTech may have a good one as well, but am uncertain.

There is apparently a very long thread about this very topic with respect to the Mac Mini over on OS9 Lives. I saw it referenced in another thread, but there wasn't a link, so if someone hunts it down, I'd love to see a link.

OK, so I'm trying something similar with my Mac mini G4. The Mac mini has a CDRW drive, so I think it's OK for installing Panther on the 2 disk set (both CDs I believe). I have an mSATA 128GB drive installed as slave, via an mSATA to IDE 2.5" adapter and I needed to create my own low-profile jumper, because standard jumpers are so tall the drive can't be fully inserted.

The adapter is this one:

Amazon.co.uk

It certainly has master/slave jumper settings and looks like it has support for Slave due to the tracks, resistor and cap.



The Mac mini gets to the chime and then presents the flashing Mac OS folder symbol, waiting for a boot disk. I can insert the Mac OS X 10.3 install disk 1 and it will insert it. It appears to make a few attempts to read the drive, before ejecting it, I can hear what appears to be the head seeking.

However, what's odd is that I don't hear it spinning up. I'm wondering what I could have done wrong. If there was a master/slave clash - should the HD be master, or cable select?

The mSATA drive is split into 2x 64GB APM partitions. I guess I could re-split it into 4 partitions; dd the first two with the contents of the Panther installation disks and remove the CD drive. Would that work? I could then check if it was a clash that way.

Anyway, any insights would be appreciated.

 

[Snial]

That is correct, there are 44-pins in the main connector and an additonal 4 pins separated from the main connector by one blank space. The additional 4 pins are the Master/Slave jumper.

I have fitted a couple of MSATA and M.2 SATA to IDE adapters recently in a Mac mini G4 and a PowerBook G4 12” and one if them (I forget which) actually had an additional part of the connector that connected to the 4 jumper pins which I suspect was to force the drive to be Master (I strongly suspect it was in the PowerBook).

I think the jumper pins are intended to be standardised on all drives but I would take tgst with a pinch of salt.

Hmmm @SiliconValleyPirate , so you managed to get the mSATA + IDE adapter to work in a Mac mini G4? Did you force it to be Master? I'm currently dependant on a MacBook C2D for DVD access and an internal 2004 iBook HD, because haven't yet managed to get the mSATA drive to be recognised on the mini G4. It's a massive improvement over the week though, because now I finally have a late PPC-era Mac that works well enough to be usable: it has 10.5 on it + iWork 06, GarageBand 3, Final Cut Express HD, Text Wrangler and an AVR development kit.

 

[MBongo]

Trag said:
“There is apparently a very long thread about this very topic with respect to the Mac Mini over on OS9 Lives. I saw it referenced in another thread, but there wasn't a link, so if someone hunts it down, I'd love to see a link.”

That link / thread… begins here:

Mac Mini SSD Adapters

Mac Mini SSD Adapters

macos9lives.com

And with some newer mSATA sled adapters mentioned in more detail, towards the end.

Don’t think that I’ve ever had to install any jumpers for use in the G4 Mac mini.
That includes the StarTech, Addonics, Ableconn, etc. (Red PCB, Marvell-based) or the full-height & half-height, (Green PCB, JMicron-based) mSATA adapter cards / sleds. Although the half-height card pictured below here (on the right) must have the voltage selector switch present set to 5V. (Look for the little red dot on that image.) *Some half-height cards may not have that selector.



Haven’t tried any of the adapters / bridges / sleds in a PowerBook or other laptop so I can’t comment on their use or jumper settings there.

AND I do have an Ableconn mSATA sled in a G4 Mac mini - which does not require a jumper at all. (That would be configured as a Master.)

 

[Snial]

Trag said:
“There is apparently a very long thread about this very topic with respect to the Mac Mini over on OS9 Lives. I saw it referenced in another thread, but there wasn't a link, so if someone hunts it down, I'd love to see a link.”

That link / thread… begins here:

Mac Mini SSD Adapters

Mac Mini SSD Adapters

macos9lives.com

And with some newer mSATA sled adapters mentioned in more detail, towards the end.

Don’t think that I’ve ever had to install any jumpers for use in the G4 Mac mini.
That includes the StarTech, Addonics, Ableconn, etc. (Red PCB, Marvell-based) or the full-height & half-height, (Green PCB, JMicron-based) mSATA adapter cards / sleds. Although the half-height card pictured below here (on the right) must have the voltage selector switch present set to 5V. (Look for the little red dot on that image.) *Some half-height cards may not have that selector.

View attachment 63257

Haven’t tried any of the adapters / bridges / sleds in a PowerBook or other laptop so I can’t comment on their use or jumper settings there.

AND I do have an Ableconn mSATA sled in a G4 Mac mini - which does not require a jumper at all. (That would be configured as a Master.)

Hi @MBongo, thanks very much for the reply.

My IDE adapter is a lot like the one on the far left. It's made by NFHK (whatever that means). There's one slight difference in that C14 isn't fitted, but in your picture it would connect to the middle pin of U1, which is snipped on your image and mine.

OK, I've made a slight amount of progress and next I'll read the macOS9lives thread to see if it sheds some light. I have no 3.3V / 5V switch on mine. I do have a USB to IDE interface as well, so I can do mSATA to IDE to USB. It has a mini-B USB connector, but also a separate 5V power jack input (which has a USB-A connector on the other end to plug into a USB power adapter or even a second computer USB port).

I noticed this issue when I first tried to format it using my MacBook C2D (running Mac OS 10.7). To use the IDE to USB interface with a magnetic media, spinning hard disk, I needed to add the 5V power input to provide enough juice for the hard disk. Without it, the drive doesn't spin up, can't be seen from OF and can't be booted from (I used this video to boot from it:

but it's on usb@1b,1 not usb@1). Plugging in the 5V power means it can be seen.

With the mSATA SSD it's the other way around. If I plug in the 5V power jack, the SSD can't be seen from OF, but if I only use the USB mini-B input, it can be seen from OF. In both cases, the LED on the SSD lights up. In the former case, i.e. without power, the LED blinks when I power on and also when I do dir ud:,\ and it lists the root directory. (ud is the devalias to /pci@f2.../usb@1b,1/disk@1). In the latter case, the LED never blinks (and I can't do a dir, because /pci@f2.../usb@1b,1/disk@1 doesn't appear).

I wonder if the internal ATA interface on the mini G4 is doing the same thing and that's why it doesn't appear?

(I've been reading the thread now, BTW I have an integral mSATA SSD with a white adapter and enclosure, I didn't know any better, but I thought integral might be OK as I've seen a bit of their stuff).

 

[Snial]

OK, I've made a slight amount of progress and next I'll read the macOS9lives thread to see if it sheds some light. I have no 3.3V / 5V switch on mine. I do have a USB to IDE interface as well, so I can do mSATA to IDE to USB. It has a mini-B USB connector, but also a separate 5V power jack input (which has a USB-A connector on the other end to plug into a USB power adapter or even a second computer USB port).

I noticed this issue when I first tried to format it using my MacBook C2D (running Mac OS 10.7). To use the IDE to USB interface with a magnetic media, spinning hard disk, I needed to add the 5V power input to provide enough juice for the hard disk. Without it, the drive doesn't spin up, can't be seen from OF and can't be booted from (I used this video to boot from it:

but it's on usb@1b,1 not usb@1). Plugging in the 5V power means it can be seen.

With the mSATA SSD it's the other way around. If I plug in the 5V power jack, the SSD can't be seen from OF, but if I only use the USB mini-B input, it can be seen from OF. In both cases, the LED on the SSD lights up. In the former case, i.e. without power, the LED blinks when I power on and also when I do dir ud:,\ and it lists the root directory. (ud is the devalias to /pci@f2.../usb@1b,1/disk@1). In the latter case, the LED never blinks (and I can't do a dir, because /pci@f2.../usb@1b,1/disk@1 doesn't appear).

I wonder if the internal ATA interface on the mini G4 is doing the same thing and that's why it doesn't appear?

I've had one more thought on the issue. I've just been looking at the pinout for a 44-pin interface. It has a 5V logic pin and another 5V motor pin. So, if the interface was properly regulating the logic pin, but not the motor pin and yet accepting an input on both of them, then it would end up generating a proper voltage if the 5V motor pin wasn't connected, but not if it was. With a real HD it'd be the other way around: there would be no power for the motor, so it could never spin up.

 

[MBongo]

I usually initialize, format and partition using Drive Setup 2.1 from the OS 9 installer disc http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4365.msg30502.html#msg30502 and then reboot and install 10.4.6 afterwards… using Disk Utility to reformat the 2nd partition before installing OS 10.4.6.

However, your problem may stem from trying to install basic 10.3. Both sets of original G4 Mac mini install disc sets here are marked 10.4 and 10.4.2. Although Everymac.com notes that OS 10.3.7 was pre-installed on the G4 minis.

Maybe try a 10.4 installer disc, option-key booted and then select the CD - if it mounts, to format and install? Try to do it all within the mini itself.

*Then there’s always the question of the quality / bootability of your 10.3 installer disc too. Apple retail disc or burned from download?

 

[Snial]

I usually initialize, format and partition using Drive Setup 2.1 from the OS 9 installer disc http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4365.msg30502.html#msg30502 and then reboot and install 10.4.6 afterwards… using Disk Utility to reformat the 2nd partition before installing OS 10.4.6.

However, your problem may stem from trying to install basic 10.3. Both sets of original G4 Mac mini install disc sets here are marked 10.4 and 10.4.2. Although Everymac.com notes that OS 10.3.7 was pre-installed on the G4 minis.

Maybe try a 10.4 installer disc, option-key booted and then select the CD - if it mounts, to format and install? Try to do it all within the mini itself.

*Then there’s always the question of the quality / bootability of your 10.3 installer disc too. Apple retail disc or burned from download?

@MBongo thanks for the reply. What I mean is that it's not just a question of the drive being formatted OK, it is formatted and the mini G4 (which is a 1.33GHz one) can see it when I don't plug the power jack in (and I can do a listing of the directory using open firmware).


But if I plug the power jack in, it isn't seen in Open Firmware (and I can't do a directory listing either, because it's not seen):


Note, in the top image, Open Firmware dev / ls , lists /usb@1b,1/disk@1, but in the bottom one there's nothing under /usb@1b,1 (/usb@1b,2 simply follows it).

Looking at the PCB, it looks like 5V (Motor) is connected to 5V (Logic). Also, I've found that when it's bus-powered the power pins are 4.9V, but when I add the power jack it's 5.1V. I'd be surprised that this alone is the issue, but if it was I guess the mini G4 must be providing just over 5V.

 

[MBongo]

Perhaps I misunderstood. You’re trying to do this externally via USB, using the interface outlined in red… versus internally, connected to the G4’s internal riser? (Similar Mac Mini C2D riser shown in my example.)



If your plan is to use the mSATA and adapter inside of the G4 Mac Mini, then skip the external USB route and transfer the mSATA and adapter into the Mac mini.

Otherwise, I’m not really quite sure what you are attempting.

 

[herd]

Can you spot the difference?

 

[MBongo]

You mean other than what I assume to be a missing voltage regulator on the left one?

 

[herd]

That's weird, I guess the forum software deleted my whole post in place of the picture. I was talking about how the 2.5" laptop drives run on 5v and the mSata drives run on 3.3v and the adapter does the conversion (if you get the correct one).

 

[Snial]

Perhaps I misunderstood. You’re trying to do this externally via USB, using the interface outlined in red… versus internally, connected to the G4’s internal riser? (Similar Mac Mini C2D riser shown in my example.)

View attachment 63312 View attachment 63313

If your plan is to use the mSATA and adapter inside of the G4 Mac Mini, then skip the external USB route and transfer the mSATA and adapter into the Mac mini.

Otherwise, I’m not really quite sure what you are attempting.

Oops, I didn't express myself very well. I do intend to use in the mini G4 and most of the time I've been attempting to use it via the internal IDE interface on the riser as in the second picture above. However, the drive isn't seen there at all (i.e. not seen in OF as a disk), and I was thinking, for similar reasons it's not seen via the IDE USB interface when I use the separate power jack. I thought my experiments could shed light on the reason because:

1. The drive must be correctly formatted, because it can be seen via the IDE-USB interface if the power jack isn't plugged in.
2. Plugging in the power jack makes a difference to the behaviour, so it's easier to analyse than when the board is mounted on the riser inside the mini G4. OTOH I'd quite happy hack the board to feed the regulator from a lower-voltage supply if I could be confident that would help.

I don't have Mac OS 9.2 for the mini G4; though I do for a couple of iMac G3/400s. I tried, but couldn't install Panther on the mini G4, because my Panther installation is far <10.3.7.

 

[MBongo]

The G4 Mac mini was never originally intended to install or run OS 9 - but can with the OS 9.2.2 Installer mentioned previously. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4365.0.html

IF you only intend to install / run OS X, I’d begin with and try some version of Tiger… with the mSata + adapter actually inside the mini.

And if neither installer recognizes the mSata placed back inside the mini... hopefully when booted from either installer CD, you’ll get “that message” and that request to initialize it.

I question what (and how) exactly you used to format your mSata and maybe whether or not your adapter is “correct” (as per herd). But your adapter looks nearly identical to one. (Shown here with G4 Mini “open case” and running, various temperature readings.)

 

[MBongo]

That's weird, I guess the forum software deleted my whole post in place of the picture. I was talking about how the 2.5" laptop drives run on 5v and the mSata drives run on 3.3v and the adapter does the conversion (if you get the correct one).

Okay, perhaps even “weirder Plus”… the half-sized card mSata adapter (typically comes with a white case) will not run in a G4 Mac mini unless the little voltage selector is set to 5v. The “full-size” mSata adapter does not offer that option - but still functions fine.

All pictured in #9 post above.

Won’t even delve into the MCA004 and the AS331 bridge adapters (also pictured #9 above) that are nearly completely identical - but the MCA004 often fails to boot while the AS331 boots the mini without fail. (Of course the AS331’s can no longer be sourced.)