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Color Classic CRT specs
- Thread starter BadGoldEagle
- Start date
Just for clarity what are you looking for, a 9" CRT for a "Classic" case or a 10" for a Color Classic? Those are two different things.
And, yes, really if you get right down to it 9" or 10" is too small to be good for resolutions much higher than 640x480 because of dot pitch limitations. There are people who've modified the analog board on Color Classics to cram 800x600 onto them but the results are "meh" despite the fact that the CC's 10" Trinitron is about as good as it gets, tube-wise.
In any case, you are pretty much wasting your time looking at TV production or surveillance monitors unless, again, you *want* to be limited to TV scan rates. Some of those monitors do support RGB input but only at NTSC or PAL line rates. (IE, to put it in TV terms, "480i", vs. VGA's "480p".) TV-rate RGB monitors are useful for a few mid-80's home computers (poster boy here would be the Commodore Amiga) and it is *technically* possible to drive them with a VGA card (if you're looking at a PC hardware based hack) with special driver software, but about the only application for doing so is for things like building MAME cabinets. For doing "computer things" the interlaced display necessary to display more than 240 pixels vertically will burn your eyes out of your skull.
Most of the VGA-capable CRTs smaller than 13" you'll find out there are monochrome. Color ones *do* exist but they're rare as hen's teeth.
And, yes, really if you get right down to it 9" or 10" is too small to be good for resolutions much higher than 640x480 because of dot pitch limitations. There are people who've modified the analog board on Color Classics to cram 800x600 onto them but the results are "meh" despite the fact that the CC's 10" Trinitron is about as good as it gets, tube-wise.
In any case, you are pretty much wasting your time looking at TV production or surveillance monitors unless, again, you *want* to be limited to TV scan rates. Some of those monitors do support RGB input but only at NTSC or PAL line rates. (IE, to put it in TV terms, "480i", vs. VGA's "480p".) TV-rate RGB monitors are useful for a few mid-80's home computers (poster boy here would be the Commodore Amiga) and it is *technically* possible to drive them with a VGA card (if you're looking at a PC hardware based hack) with special driver software, but about the only application for doing so is for things like building MAME cabinets. For doing "computer things" the interlaced display necessary to display more than 240 pixels vertically will burn your eyes out of your skull.
Most of the VGA-capable CRTs smaller than 13" you'll find out there are monochrome. Color ones *do* exist but they're rare as hen's teeth.
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Paralel
Well-known member
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BadGoldEagle
Well-known member
I wasn't specific enough, you're right.
I'm not a big fan of the Color Classic. I think it's more of a LC/Performa than a classic but that's only my opinion. It looks too much like the LC550, it even shares the same logic board design. Some people like it others don't. There's no accounting for taste. Anyway, I don't plan on adding a CC to my collection.
The Classic and the Classic II were kinda deceiving and I would like the 'Classic III' to be a good one.
Many people have tried over the years modding the classic case by replacing the mac's guts with a Mac Mini and swapping the CRT for a color LCD. I don't want to do that. I don't like the look of LCDs in Compact Mac cases. I think it just looks odd.
I would like to swap the logic board for one of a Quadra 605/LC475, making this Classic III the first stock 040 'Compact'. I don't want to sacrifice a mac either so I'll use a Mac with a beaten up case.
I did the maths, it fits if you put it sideways (ports on the side), then I would design a piece of PCB that would act as a port extension cable so the ports would be at the right place (i.e. at the back)
Then the LC475 would need a 9/10 inch compatible monitor that I would fit internally inside the modded Mac case. I just need the right monitor. I don't want to play 8-bit games on it. I want it to be crisp, and I dunno if that's even possible and if it is what to look for.
The case has to be modded, I know but as I said before I have two options: Case extension or build a complete custom bucket.
PS: I know I said the CC looks like an LC (and basically is an entry level LC) and that I want to use an LC as a logic board for my mod. But it would be different I swear
I'm not a big fan of the Color Classic. I think it's more of a LC/Performa than a classic but that's only my opinion. It looks too much like the LC550, it even shares the same logic board design. Some people like it others don't. There's no accounting for taste. Anyway, I don't plan on adding a CC to my collection.
The Classic and the Classic II were kinda deceiving and I would like the 'Classic III' to be a good one.
Many people have tried over the years modding the classic case by replacing the mac's guts with a Mac Mini and swapping the CRT for a color LCD. I don't want to do that. I don't like the look of LCDs in Compact Mac cases. I think it just looks odd.
I would like to swap the logic board for one of a Quadra 605/LC475, making this Classic III the first stock 040 'Compact'. I don't want to sacrifice a mac either so I'll use a Mac with a beaten up case.
I did the maths, it fits if you put it sideways (ports on the side), then I would design a piece of PCB that would act as a port extension cable so the ports would be at the right place (i.e. at the back)
Then the LC475 would need a 9/10 inch compatible monitor that I would fit internally inside the modded Mac case. I just need the right monitor. I don't want to play 8-bit games on it. I want it to be crisp, and I dunno if that's even possible and if it is what to look for.
The case has to be modded, I know but as I said before I have two options: Case extension or build a complete custom bucket.
PS: I know I said the CC looks like an LC (and basically is an entry level LC) and that I want to use an LC as a logic board for my mod. But it would be different I swear
Here you go, a ten inch color VGA monitor for industrial applications. Only six hundred euros!
Looks like another source of monitors like this is old ATMs. In any case, expect to pay through the nose for a new one, and be aware that any used one is likely to have *severe* burn in.
Looks like another source of monitors like this is old ATMs. In any case, expect to pay through the nose for a new one, and be aware that any used one is likely to have *severe* burn in.
If you're talking color, yeah, and "common" definitely belongs in quotes. 9" *mono* monitors are about the only genuinely "common" small VGA CRT thanks to their use in POS systems. I really can't think of anywhere small color VGA monitors were widely used outside of ATM machines and industrial equipment, nobody but Apple was making desktop computers with smaller-than-12" monitors after, geeze, the very early 1980's? Unless you count "sewing machine-style" luggables you can probably count on one hand the number of mainstream computers that used such small screens, and everything I can think off offhand vastly predates the Color Classic.
(Let's see... after early Commodore PETs you have... some of HP's desktop computers, like the HP Touchscreen? Do those even count as mainstream? There was a British company named Apricot that made some sorta-PC-clone machines with 9" displays that were... kind of common in England? Kinda drawing a blank here, frankly.)
Speaking of sewing machine portables (as distinct from "lunchbox" portables using flatscreens), there were a few built with color monitors as late as the end of the 90's; you can find pictures of them in contemporary computer magazines. (Look in the back where the ads for offbrand clones and industrial/vertical market systems are, no big manufacturer made them after color notebook computer screens reach "acceptable" levels of price and quality.) If you could find one of those *maaaaybe* you could get that into a Mac case with sufficient butchery, but good luck finding one.
(Let's see... after early Commodore PETs you have... some of HP's desktop computers, like the HP Touchscreen? Do those even count as mainstream? There was a British company named Apricot that made some sorta-PC-clone machines with 9" displays that were... kind of common in England? Kinda drawing a blank here, frankly.)
Speaking of sewing machine portables (as distinct from "lunchbox" portables using flatscreens), there were a few built with color monitors as late as the end of the 90's; you can find pictures of them in contemporary computer magazines. (Look in the back where the ads for offbrand clones and industrial/vertical market systems are, no big manufacturer made them after color notebook computer screens reach "acceptable" levels of price and quality.) If you could find one of those *maaaaybe* you could get that into a Mac case with sufficient butchery, but good luck finding one.
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techknight
Well-known member
But even then, CRT use in POS systems are slowly fading away. IBM uses regular ol 4 by 3 LCDs now. At least everywhere I visit to shop anyways.
Well, yeah. I don't think anyone has manufactured a new CRT monitor for the better part of a decade. When saying that 9" B&W VGA CRTs for POS systems were "common" I meant solely in the historical sense and to distinguish them from sub-13" color VGA CRTs which were never, ever, EVER common.
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MinerAl
Well-known member
There used to be a really nicely illustrated thread on here about me putting at first a 605 (which fits perfectly in a Classic if you remove the fan shroud, you don't even have to turn it in sideways) and then a 575 (which is the same dimensions as a CC board, which in turn was clearly designed to fit in the (non-Color) Classic chassis) in it. The point was to have it be a c.1994 Classic III (I liked the name "Quadra Classic") with the manual inject floppy opening pout surgically added. Unfortunately the forum changed software in '14, the pictures went missing, and the thread is pretty useless without the pictures.
Anyway...
I did successfully put a 9" grayscale SVGA (800x600) "new" POS monitor in a Classic chassis and run it from the 605 board. Getting it all buttoned up with the logic board inside and the '94 style face on it has been receding in likelihood for 2 years, but I'm 90% there.
A color CRT (9" or otherwise) will not fit in a Classic case without some major plastic surgery on the bucket. Color CRTs are much deeper than their monochrome counterparts. You'd need a hole/bump on the back cover to deal with that depth. The 10" color XGA monitor I have could probably fit in the front with some judicious bezel trimming, but it is at least two inches too deep for the bucket to fit on the back.
Anyway...
I did successfully put a 9" grayscale SVGA (800x600) "new" POS monitor in a Classic chassis and run it from the 605 board. Getting it all buttoned up with the logic board inside and the '94 style face on it has been receding in likelihood for 2 years, but I'm 90% there.
A color CRT (9" or otherwise) will not fit in a Classic case without some major plastic surgery on the bucket. Color CRTs are much deeper than their monochrome counterparts. You'd need a hole/bump on the back cover to deal with that depth. The 10" color XGA monitor I have could probably fit in the front with some judicious bezel trimming, but it is at least two inches too deep for the bucket to fit on the back.
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BadGoldEagle
Well-known member
Thanks for your help guys. €600 seems a bit steep for me tho :-x
I contemplated CNC displays for a while but I thought these would not offer good resolutions...
MinerAl, thanks for all the info.
So the 605 board will fit nicely as it should (ports facing backwards) with the original Classic Chassis (minus its fan), right?
That's REALLY helpful! No need to learn PCB design ! The project got a lot easier, or at least not as hard as it originally was ;D
After discussing the subject of making custom cases with one of my teachers who's specialised in materials, I came to the conclusion that I won't be able to recreate an identical bucket. Apparently, you need to burn the thing to a crisp to determine what was in that plastic. It will be very expensive as well.
So what I'll do is have a custom case 'extension' made. It will be cheaper as well. I'll come up with a design once I get my hands on an original Classic case.
It's not that hard if you use the right tools.
I have 2 problems now:
1/ Choose a good 9 inch color CRT that won't cost me an arm and a leg (I need those)
2/ Sort out that manual/automatic floppy drive conversion.
Let's concentrate on the first one on this thread. I'll ask Bunsen to move it to Hacks & Development.
I contemplated CNC displays for a while but I thought these would not offer good resolutions...
MinerAl, thanks for all the info.
So the 605 board will fit nicely as it should (ports facing backwards) with the original Classic Chassis (minus its fan), right?
That's REALLY helpful! No need to learn PCB design ! The project got a lot easier, or at least not as hard as it originally was ;D
After discussing the subject of making custom cases with one of my teachers who's specialised in materials, I came to the conclusion that I won't be able to recreate an identical bucket. Apparently, you need to burn the thing to a crisp to determine what was in that plastic. It will be very expensive as well.
So what I'll do is have a custom case 'extension' made. It will be cheaper as well. I'll come up with a design once I get my hands on an original Classic case.
It's not that hard if you use the right tools.
I have 2 problems now:
1/ Choose a good 9 inch color CRT that won't cost me an arm and a leg (I need those)
2/ Sort out that manual/automatic floppy drive conversion.
Let's concentrate on the first one on this thread. I'll ask Bunsen to move it to Hacks & Development.
mraroid
Well-known member
BadGoldEagle...
Is this the CRT you are looking for?
http://www.atfgaia-itshop.com/DetailsPartNumber.php?PieceRecherchee=661-0004&FamilleSimilaireMarque=D-LINK
jack
Is this the CRT you are looking for?
http://www.atfgaia-itshop.com/DetailsPartNumber.php?PieceRecherchee=661-0004&FamilleSimilaireMarque=D-LINK
jack
Out of curiosity, what's the manufacturer/model number of your monitor? (Is it an open-chassis thing or is it cased?) It might help the OP search for one like it. 99% of Google searches for 10 inch VGA monitors turn up nothing but references to industrial applications (like the aforementioned CNC/ATM monitors), either super-expensive original replacement parts or for conversion kits for installing LCDs in the place of said parts.
Regarding BGE's comment about "CNC Displays not offering good resolutions", well, expectations will probably need to be tempered here. Color CRTs are ultimately limited by dot pitch and even the finest dot pitches ever made can't accommodate much better than 640x480 at a 10" size without blurring. (The electronics can push whatever arbitrary resolution they want but if your dot rate is higher than the dot pitch you'll end up with some pixels effectively falling in between the holes in the shadow mask, and of course a *color* pixel need to be formed from a triad of dots, lowering the effective resolution further.) The Trinitron in the Color Classic had a .25mm dot pitch which essentially translates to about 100 DPI. The viewable area of the monitor is only about, what, seven or so inches wide?, which *pretty much* caps it at 640x480 as the best resolution it can do with a straight face. You're not going to find anything better than that.
MinerAl
Well-known member
It is a 10" POS monitor, so it just looks like a regular (but tiny) CRT computer monitor from the 90s. It's a Fujitsu; Type No: PB600441, P/N:80602101, manufactured by Action Electronics Co. LTD in Taiwan in April 2000. It has a lot of Dutch (or possibly Afrikaans) writing on stickers on it, so there's that...
A previous auction where they were sold (in 2013-14) was titled
"ebay.com/itm/New-10-Fujitsu-CRT-SVGA-Color-Monitor-1024-x-768-Resolution-Type-PB60044"
As I mentioned, the tube might fit if you shaved the bezel wider, but it is 1 7/8" (48mm) too deep to fit in the Classic bucket without serious surgery.
It isn't super blurry at 1024x768, very usable. But much clearer at 800x600 and 640x480.
You will have to dremel out the port holes on the back of the bucket, as they do not align at all. You will have to have a cable from the video port back into the case to drive the CRT you eventually put in there (this is what led me to switch to the equally perfectly fitting 575 board, with its video output on the edge connector on the front of the board). But with those caveats, yes! It fits beautifully.
On the metal chassis there are tabs that hold the Classic's tiny board in the track just the right amount; you'll need to bend them flat and remove the fan shroud, but then you're golden. I bent new tabs further in to accommodate the deeper 605 board.
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MinerAl
Well-known member
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Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
In nearly twenty years of off and on searching, I have found exactly one colour 9 or 10 inch CRT computer monitor with a VGA input and 640x480 or greater resolution that wasn't ridiculously priced. Granted, I live in a smaller market than most of you, but still...
I'll go dig it out of storage in a bit and see what it is - and if it still works.
9-10" PAL/NTSC TV monitors are relatively common, but useless for this.
I'll go dig it out of storage in a bit and see what it is - and if it still works.
9-10" PAL/NTSC TV monitors are relatively common, but useless for this.
Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
Hmm... might be an option for some greyscale Compact Mac fun. There's a spec PDF claiming resolutions of 1024x768, 640x350, 640x400, 640x480, and 800x600. Manufacturer is TVS, model VM-9AF.
NB the VM-9DF only does CGA/MDA at 720 x 348 and 640 x 200
I also found an eBay review (not an auction) for apparently the same monitor branded as Boundless Technology Tatung.
Anyway, I'm not bidding on those (US$100 shipping to me) so if nobody objects I'll add them to my Hack friendly displays thread.
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