Beginner Questions - system 6 install on a SE

[mrbill0]

I recently got a mac se with a bunch of spare parts. I got several parts machines of the same kind with it. I managed to get a hard drive that worked... for a few moments, then went bad. I am looking to do a fresh install of system 6 to a scsi ahrd drive. I have a left over scsi hard drive from a PPC mac, a quantum fireball, apple branded,that is known working. I can do a successful install to the second floppy drive, however it does not appear to recognize the hard disk when i try to install to it.

I have a MOUND of scsi drives of the hot swap variety for old servers, ive been trying to use those along with an adapter in the mac with no luck.

Im looking for some help to get this working with either my apple quantum fireball disk working or try to find out what it will take to get other scsi drives to work in it.

Ive read that the mac format utility will only work with apple branded drives. Weather that is the issue i am uncertain, there does not seem to be any kind of scsi disk info utility that gives much information off the base system 6.0.8 install floppy.

Any help or suggestions are much appreciated.

 

[3583Bytes]

Old macs won't let you install system software on a non Apple SCSI drive.  You need a utility called Lido which allows you to fool the mac into thinking its a real Apple drive.  However if you don't have a way to make a mac floppy then you may have a problem.

My actual advice is get a Floppy Emu from http://www.bigmessowires.com/ It allows you to run a hard drive from a SD card or just act as a floppy emulator that will read images from an SD card.  Very useful for copying files from a PC and you never have to worry about a SCSI drive failing

Good luck

 

[Elfen]

How big is this Quantum hard drive? You need to partition it in HFS, and then format it.

The minimum System 6 on an SE is System 6.04 if I remember correctly but System 6.07 was the best for it. After that it's System 6.08 and System 7. I do not remember any partition size limits but IMHO to keep the partitions around 500MB; unless you got a smaller drive then it's no problem.

Termination is a major issue on the Quantum Drives. Make sure it has those resistor packs by the SCSI Connector on the internal drive. And a Drive ID of 0 so it can be picked up immediately.

There is a couple of threads about resurrecting old SCSI Quantum Hard Drives when the rubber block inside turns to goo. Search for them and read up on what was done. You might be able to get bring back a dead drive.

Lastly, when you drag the System folder to the drive, you need to bless the folder. Opening it and then look at the files and then closing it usually does it.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[mrbill0]

I have some disk images of the mac os 6.0.8 startup and install floppy so I am set there. Space is getting tight between those 2, 1.44mb floppy drives.

What exactly should I be looking for in lido? In the scsi device list, nothing shows up, I have tried multiple drives. says something about bus arbitration failing.

The quantum hard drive is 1.2 Gb. the size of the drive should not matter as long as i make small enough partitions (500 mb or so) right? Mac os can see multiple partitions on the same drive right, so that extra space does not go to waste?

 

[Elfen]

What exactly should I be looking for in lido? In the scsi device list, nothing shows up, I have tried multiple drives. says something about bus arbitration failing.

The quantum hard drive is 1.2 Gb. the size of the drive should not matter as long as i make small enough partitions (500 mb or so) right? Mac os can see multiple partitions on the same drive right, so that extra space does not go to waste?

Interesting. SCSI Bus Arbitration failure? What is the exact error statement? Sounds like Termination, ID or cable issue. So lets take this one at a time.

This is for an internal Drive? Make sure if has Termination Resistors in by the SCSI connector.

If this is for an external drive, you can make sure each drive has a terminator on the inside or a Terminator on the last drive/device on the chain.

ID... On the Quantums, there are  set of 3 pairs of jumper pins labeled A0, A1, A2. They are a binary ID Format, but having no jumpers on them means you have ID 0 for that drive. A jumper on A0 has the ID of 1; a jumper on A1 has the ID of 2; and a jumper on A2 has the ID of 4. If you have more than 1 jumper, the add the ID for each to get the ID total. If all pins are jumped, then remove one of them because that is ID #7 and the Mac itself is ID 7 on the chain. no other device can have the ID of 7.

SCSI Cables is a whole different thread post, but the key rule for external cables is to use Fat Cables. Thin cables are worthless. Period.

Get a copy of SCSI Probe. It's a little Control Panel app that scans the SCSI Bus and tells you what is on the Mac. It works for System 6 and 7 and its free. You can also run it by itself (on system 7, I do not know if you can on System 6 but I'm guessing that you can). It should fit on the system on the floppy. It is really helpful on checking SCSI Problems.

If all else fails, talk to Uniserver. You might have a bad Bournes filter on logic board on the SCSI end. He can help you by walking you through a repair, getting the part or fixing it for you. He will give you all the details.

 

[beachycove]

1.2 gb will not be the issue.

And Elfin's advice is good. 

 

[SE30_Neal]

I have heard of a company in the states http://www.redrocktech.com/products/scsi-drivesthat made SSD scsi drives for old servers, could these be used in Classic Macintosh as they'd be faster and last longer?

 

[gsteemso]

I don't see anything on their page that would be a showstopper, though I'm not sure it would be cheaper than a SCSI2SD plus a suitable SD card (which, unlike the Red Rock products, are also available in PowerBook 2.5" size). No harm in contacting them to ask! Let us know what sort of pricing you find.

 

[SE30_Neal]

I emailed them so I'll wait for a reply and let you know

 

[Elfen]

I dealt with them around 2003 to create a Mac Server with SSD. They are very expensive. You are better off getting an Aztec Monster and a 16GB SanDisk CF.

 

[SE30_Neal]

Yes very expensive, i got an email response from them quoting $1295 for a drive

 

[Elfen]

For 1/10th the price you can get an Aztec Monster CF-to-SCSI Adapter AND a CF card from 8GB to 16GB.

 

[SE30_Neal]

Yes I agree it was really expensive, that said I'm really surprised how quick my SE/30 is with the standard hhd, puts my 2007 Mac mini to shame on boot up and opening docs. I think I'll keep my drive and just get an external drive as well

 

[Elfen]

Consider this: The HD on the SE\30 only puts out a poultry 5MB/Sec data transfer while the SATA Drive in the Mac Mini is supposed to over 100MB/Sec...

 

[SE30_Neal]

Wow! Let's face it the old apps of tiny weeny by comparison to modern apps, some games on my iPhone have updates over 1.5GB (real racing 3 had one with 1.8GB just for an update and its just a phone). I tell you its funny looking at the specs of my pebble steel smart watch (which is about the slowest smart watch available) it has a 80Mhz 32bit risc processor (basically the same type at the 68040) but tiny with 8Mb of ram so is actually about 450% faster than my se/30 and is solid state and isn't limit to such a slow bus or hhd all in a watch, it's basic 240x320 b&w screen reminds me of the vintage macs in many ways, how things have moved on in such a short time is amazing but theres also somethings special about using these old machines and all the purposeful noises they make, maybe it's rose tinted glasses etc when my phone is probably 1000 X more capable and is silent, light, doesn't need cables and can do pretty much anything but it has 0 character!