• Updated 2023-07-12: Hello, Guest! Welcome back, and be sure to check out this follow-up post about our outage a week or so ago.

BeBox lives after 2+ years!

Ortho'sDeli

Well-known member
I technically wrapped this late last week, but after on-and-off working to get my 66MHz BeBox running, I can proudly report that it lives!

As it turns out, the S3 GPU I was using had partial compatibility (displaying the splash and bootrom screens) but wouldn't go past that. I finally bit the bullet and picked up a Cloud 9 card and wouldn't you know it? Worked instantly.
 

Byrd

Well-known member
That's great, I've a BeBox which came with the Number Nine Cloud 9 card, even better is a Matrox Millennium 1 card which supports boot screens and has better performance. The Millennium II does not support boot screens although is a little bit faster.
 

finkmac

NORTHERN TELECOM
that's great but... no pictures??? how am I supposed to be appropriately jealous without pretty pictures to look at ?? :mad:
 

jmacz

Well-known member
I am so envious. My BeBox died back in the late 90s due to a flooding. Want one again but it’s prohibitively expensive now.
 

Huxley

Well-known member
Ooooh - another BeBox owner?! Here's mine, also a dual-66MHz model. Mine is running well with all-original hardware, although the BlinkenLights have never worked in the (nearly) 20 years that I've owned this machine - they bounce a couple times during POST, but never bounce during actual usage. Would love to figure out why!

Please hit us with pics of yours, @Ortho'sDeli!

BeBox - recolored.jpg
 

Ortho'sDeli

Well-known member
Ooooh - another BeBox owner?! Here's mine, also a dual-66MHz model. Mine is running well with all-original hardware, although the BlinkenLights have never worked in the (nearly) 20 years that I've owned this machine - they bounce a couple times during POST, but never bounce during actual usage. Would love to figure out why!

Please hit us with pics of yours, @Ortho'sDeli!
I'll have to take some tonight. Are both of your top caps missing? I still have 1 one of mine and am thinking about getting it scanned and printed. We have the identical model, so maybe making 3 would be worth it...
 

Huxley

Well-known member
I'll have to take some tonight. Are both of your top caps missing? I still have 1 one of mine and am thinking about getting it scanned and printed. We have the identical model, so maybe making 3 would be worth it...
Ooooh - yes, mine came like this and I've never had the caps. I've definitely daydreamed about finding a way to get replacements 3D printed. I have no personal knowledge or experience with 3D printing / modeling, but if you're willing to use yours as a model and you have some new ones made up, I would gladly pay for your time + the results!

Huxley
 

olePigeon

Well-known member
BeOS still remains as one of my favorite GUIs. I wonder if macOS would have been as popular as it is now had they gone with Be instead of NeXT.
 

CC_333

Well-known member
BeOS still remains as one of my favorite GUIs. I wonder if macOS would have been as popular as it is now had they gone with Be instead of NeXT.
I suspect it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference, as Apple likely still would've made their own GUI for it.

Or maybe not, since Steve Jobs probably wouldn't have come back?

It's interesting to imagine what might've been....

One way I could see it is that Apple probably wouldn't have gone bankrupt in the 90s, but would've lingered on a few years longer with BeOS and some new Mac models based on the BeBoxes enabling them to limp along, and then instead of becoming the behemoth they are now, Apple would've simply faded into obscurity, probably by the mid 2000s, turning the Mac into a dead platform. This is because they didn't have Steve Jobs to guide the company, because he's probably one of the only reasons they became so successful.

NeXT, doing reasonably well in higher ed and popular among scientists and computer science students, probably would've emerged as a replacement, and then some variation of the Mac vs PC argument would've taken place, and instead of shiny MacBooks, we'd probably have some sort of NeXT-based things running some version of NextStep that looks vaguely like Mac OS (which, in reality, it based on it, after all), but is almost entirely different because Apple had no infuence on it.

c
 

Snial

Well-known member
BeOS still remains as one of my favorite GUIs. I wonder if macOS would have been as popular as it is now had they gone with Be instead of NeXT.
The end of 1996 was scary for Mac fans, like myself, because we could see that Apple was in major trouble, even though it had a surprisingly high (but misleading) market share. PowerPC was just getting into its stride as the troubles with the x200's 603 CPU were history; the PB1400 was just released; 604 machines were out and 603e CPUs were ramping up the MHz.

The Mac community were excited about Be and largely indifferent to Steve Jobs and NeXT. And this is mostly, because of the perception of Jobs being very contentious, but also because NeXT hardware meant big, expensive & underpowered 68K workstations or Intel-based NeXT Step. Neither of these represented the Mac culture, so we weren't thinking about them. However, BeOS represented pretty much everything we wanted from Pink and Copeland: a relatively efficient, multi-tasking, multi-processor, object-oriented, multi-media OS. It was incredibly exciting. Also it ran on PowerPC and had basically already been ported to Macs.

So, the advantages with jumping onto BeOS would have been a very rapid transition to a Mac-based GUI BeOS (with some Be influences). There would have been the equivalent of CarbonLib (maybe called BeLib or ToolboxLib or something) or maybe just a Virtual Machine to run Mac OS within BeOS and then the new stuff directly on top of BeOS. Or, even just dual booting between Mac OS and BeOS. So, I imagine that would have given us the equivalent of Jaguar Mac OS X 10.2, by late 1998 or early 1999 rather than mid-2002, it would have gained us about 3 years.

Gassée was a popular manager as far as I understood. He had charisma and drive as well as an understanding of marketing. He didn't have the same left-field creativity of Jobs, but he wan't as abrasive. Gassée likely would have replaced Amelio as CEO much more quickly than Jobs did, probably by early 1997. However, he wouldn't have been as commanding as Jobs, nor as capable of paring down the product line; nor eliminating clones (which were starving Apple of profits for R&D).

That's what makes deciding between a BeOS alternate history difficult. If I was in Gassée's position, I would have kept the clones (Be essentially was making machines not too far from Mac clones), but changed the terms so that Apple's R&D could have been maintained: differentiate clones by features (or bundles) rather than price. For example, Apple could have gone for the consumer market (with lots of bundled software) and the high-end market (speed & graphics); whereas clones could target specific markets (business, bare-bones, internet, servers).

Jony Ive was already at Apple, the emate 300 was his design and that influenced the iMac. It's possible (given that Gassée is European as is Ive - being British), that there would have been a similar iMac path, but it's also very likely that the Newton wouldn't have been dropped (because Gassée probably wouldn't have been so ruthless) and that Newton-based tablets would have appeared (especially given that it was already a pen-based OS; ARM-powered; and that the Newton 2000+ and emate were pointing in that direction). This means the equivalent of an iMac would have appeared earlier (perhaps not so stylish) and the iPad.

Fun fact: I was working on a Symbian OS (think Nokia Smartphone from the early 2000s) ARM-based web-tablet in 2000-2001, but it got scrapped because Microsoft announced their own (vapourware) web tablet at the CES show in late 2000. So, web-tablets were already on the agenda.


1707768281323.png

Gassée would have probably missed getting Apple to develop the iPod and branching out into the music industry, this is partly because Newton OS's underlying OS and language wasn't really a real-time system. OTOH, maybe they could since Apple even then wasn't averse to incorporating other people's initiatives; was very interested in ARM (a major shareholder and founder) and the iPod was based on the PortalPlayer. But it would have looked worse, I think - imagine a Newton-styled iPod (ugh).

I think this means the decline of the Mac OS market share during the late 1990s would have been slower thanks to a shorter BeOS hiatus and clones. This would have empowered more PowerPC developers at Motorola & IBM, so it could have hung on for a couple more generations. I think that, because my take on PowerPC vs Intel is that Intel had 10x the engineers, so they were able to overtake. So, then we'd get the G3, G4 & G5 as before (taking us to 2005) G6cl (consumer/laptop, 64-bit, 4 IU, 2 FPU, taking us to 2010) G6pro (high-end, (4 IU, 2 FPU) x dual core, multiprocessor to 2010), G7cl (low power G6pro revision) and G7pro (quad core) taking us to the mid 2010s before starting to struggle. But by then ARM, under more Apple influence could have caught up enough to take on more load with hybrid PPC/ARM Macs (performance / low power) and massive server arrays (clone manufacturers). But maybe it just would just be able to keep going, because AMD have managed it on a much smaller budget and market share than Intel (AFAIK). One thing is more likely: there would be no Intel Mac era, and thus no Rosetta.

So, I think Apple could have survived, but in a different way: more open; bigger Mac department; smaller company; more clones; fewer, but not non-zero gadgets. Perhaps a fairly even split between Apple, Android and MS in the mobile space (maybe even 60% Android, 27% MS, 12% Apple, 1% Linux).
 

olePigeon

Well-known member
I think Apple would have eventually made the desktop / portable comeback we've seen, but it would have been delayed. Apple's gadgets department would have made Apple valid again, and by extension, their other products; starting with the iPod, iPhone, & iPad. Whether or not the iPhone ran a simplified version of NeXT OS X or BeOS X probably didn't matter so much, in my opinion, because the overall design and UI would've still been revolutionary with the easy-to-use full-sized touch screen. The only difference is that by the time Apple's desktop & portables started to be relevant again with the popularity of the iPhone & iPad, they might have just skipped Intel all-together and gone with ARM. Or perhaps Apple would have made an early play to purchase ARM as a hedge bet to losing out on the desktop market, counting on licensing from all the copy cat devises to keep them afloat.
 

herd

Well-known member
That's neat! --thanks for sharing. It's kinda like hooking up the LEDs on a RAID card and watching them all go.
 

Huxley

Well-known member
Hey @Ortho'sDeli - curious if you ever proceeded with getting the "cap" from your BeBox scanned for 3D-printer-replication? I'd love to piggyback off your work and get my two missing caps replaced!

:)

Huxley
 

Ortho'sDeli

Well-known member
Hey @Ortho'sDeli - curious if you ever proceeded with getting the "cap" from your BeBox scanned for 3D-printer-replication? I'd love to piggyback off your work and get my two missing caps replaced!

:)

Huxley
Well this is embarrassing. I took a rough 3D "walkaround" scan with Scaniverse, but never got it properly done with a real scanner, and I've since sold the BeBox at VCFSW. I'll post that scan tonight though. I'm sure someone could polish it into something usable.
 
Top