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50 G4 Minis (not mine)

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Such a G4 would also be a nice bsd or linux shell system for a small number of users. I'm between local shell hosts, but my most recent such machine was a 1.4GHz Pentium M with 768MB of memory and a 250GB spinning disk. That machine received an upgrade to 1.5GB of memory pretty recently.

For that kind of task, not much other than that the machine is relatively small and quiet matters.

Xgrid cluster would be really interesting use for such a group of machines, the biggest challenge is that the G4 mini only has 10/100 networking, which I seem to recall back in the day meant that your money was usually better spent on fewer bigger systems to do your task, though it would sort of depend on how the network is used by your particular task. (i.e. if it's really a distribution method for tasks that take a long time to run, the way SETI et al work, or if it needs really intense network access, which I'm told a lot of xgrid tasks like video rendering and distributed xcode compiles require.)

It would be neat to look at either way.

 

trag

Well-known member
the biggest challenge is that the G4 mini only has 10/100 networking,
For a long time I wanted to use a G4 Mini as the back up server in my house. I spent a bunch of time looking at schemes for putting gigabit ethernet in the thing. Nothing was going to be particularly good. The most promising avenue of research was to reverse engineer the pin out of Apple's Mini-PCI slot by comparing broadcom wifi cards for the mini to PCI wifi cards with the same chipset, then create a card with a Realtek 8169 on board using the pinout I would have discovered.

I still hadn't figured out how to bring the ethernet cable out of the machine when I bought another Mini (to experiment on) on Ebay, and it turned out to be a 2010 C2D Mini instead of a G4 (the description was kind of vague). At that point, I abandoned the whole scheme.

 

Gorgonops

Moderator
Staff member
Xgrid cluster would be really interesting use for such a group of machines, the biggest challenge is that the G4 mini only has 10/100 networking, which I seem to recall back in the day meant that your money was usually better spent on fewer bigger systems to do your task
I assume you're talking about using this Xgrid for some sort of "historical" task; Xgrid as a technology has been dead for a while now. To be kind to the idea, I guess, going by GeekBench 2 results 50 Mac Minis (with an average score of around 800) would, with their aggregate score of 40,000, add up to around 40% more processing power than a 2013 Mac Pro with a single 12 core Intel Xeon E5-2697 v2. (Geekbench of around 28,000.) Since that CPU alone sells for north of two grand the pile of Minis must be one heck of a deal, right?

(Spoiler: there's a *lot* wrong with the math there.)

 

John_A

Well-known member
Well, Xgrid can be used on OS X 10.4 - 10.7, so its not exactly ancient technology; or at least its several decades newer than most other topics discussed here :)

Interesting read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xgrid

Edit: It looks to me that the performance of the controlling computer has to increase with relationship to the size of the cluster/complexity of computations, since

its task is to distribute the work and assemble the returned results.

 
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Unknown_K

Well-known member
Odd you got gigabit Ethernet back in the stone age of G4 towers but the much newer G4 mini is just 10/100.

 

IPalindromeI

Well-known member
It was Apple's way of making it low-end (and cheap) - I have towers well into the late Vista era with 10/100 only (and 6150SE chipsets, yuck)

 

trag

Well-known member
I bought another Mini (to experiment on) on Ebay, and it turned out to be a 2010 C2D Mini instead of a G4 (the description was kind of vague). At that point, I abandoned the whole scheme.
2009 Mini. Had the year wrong. Still same case, but C2D and dual video output.

 

CC_333

Well-known member
I just sold one of my Minis (a CoreDuo 1.83 GHz Late 2006) to Elfen, and I intend to eventually get a 2009 Mini or something (just to have, since they're so handy). Maybe a G4 as well, mostly because, as this thread has pointed out, they're getting cheap enough, and they're old and slow and common enough, that people practically can't give them away (it seems).

And, if anybody ever gets OS 9 running natively on one, I'd be super happy (they take up so much less space than a G4 tower).

c

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Xgrid was a neat idea, but it seems like a lot of the need for that particular type of computing on the Mac has since died off a little bit. I think XCode may still be able to do distributed compiles, but the new trend seems to be using a Mini or Mac Pro as an xcode server, and let that machine take care of version control, automated building, and certain testing processes.

It's probably one of the few reasons I'd recommend somebody run an OS X Server at all today.

If the goal of this thread was to make me want a G4 Mini, it's succeeding.
Tangentially, 1.42GHz eMac G4 decked to the gills (2GB, big disk) is probably one of my top personal picks for a fast PowerPC machine. My PowerBook G4 was probably enough PowerPC laptop for a lifetime, but those eMacs had nice speakers, pretty good CRT displays, and just a unique overall appearance.

From a product and platform perspective I was really happy with Apple at that time, it's just that most of the hardware was woefully underperforming compared to literally everything else in the industry, it looks even worse if you compare it to one-generation-newer Macs running Intel processors, and to older Pentium 4s.

Just as a sort of fun figure, the 1.67GHz G4 in the last-generation PowerBook G4 (shipping in early 2006) scores the same on cinebench as the 1.8GHz ThinkPad T30, shipping in late 2002. There was a 2.4GHz processor available for the T30 as well.

That era, with Mac OS X 10.3 and 10.4 and that hardware was sort of when Apple started to really come into their current selves as selling a series of "application appliances", and I sort of wonder if we're not seeing a similar thing today with the Mac OS X 10.10 issues where even though the "requirements" aren't increasing, the amount of horsepower you realistically need to run the software well is increasing. (pure conjecture and I don't know if this is actually true of 10.10.)

In the phone and tablet markets, Apple has been very careful not to talk about specifications. HTC has always listed "528MHz ARM processor!" on their phones, and Apple never has, even though their desktop computers had specific specs. Apple's moving in this direction, simply referring to the CPU in the MacBook Air as the "i5" instead of the i5-4560U, which is what you'd see listed on Dell's or Lenovo's web site. (Not that either of them build anything with that CPU, which I consider to be a shame, but that's another issue.)

Similarly though, 2005-2009 was when Apple started shedding a lot of products. The Xserve RAID for example, was a(n aging) component of an Apple-centric infrastructure for organizations that was not necessarily needed very much once Apple's only on-prem "enterprise" application, PowerSchool (which was only ever "barely" theirs anyway) was shed in 2006. Mac OS X Server was never that great at what it claimed to do, it did it, but the whole point of it seemed to be this on-premise appliance that Apple has deemed is no longer necessary, at least in the form it existed in 10.6 and earlier.

Apple always gets compared to a UNIX workstation vendor and the mac mini and iMac are great "unix chores" boxes to succeed the NeXTstation, Sun SPARCstation series and low end SGIs and DECs like the Indy, Fuel, and DS10, but I definitely wonder whether or not they were also trying to get in at higher levels. (I mean, there was, for example, the Apple Workgroup Cluster for Bioinformatics, which was essentially a pile of xserves, an Ethernet switch and a UPS in a rack, which you could argue competed with some pretty big systems from SGI, Sun, HPQ (three platforms) and IBM at the time.)

Somewhere, there's a computing alt-history fanfic for an Apple and DEC that got together and bought Be, resulting in Alpha based Macs that were fast and ran a pretty great-looking reimaginging of OpenVMS. That's another thread, though.

Odd you got gigabit Ethernet back in the stone age of G4 towers but the much newer G4 mini is just 10/100.
At the time of its introduction, the least expensive Power Macintosh cost over three times what the mini did. The iMac G5 (which might have had Gigabit) cost nearly three times what the mini did, probably 2.7 times.

The eMac G4 is probably a better comparison, those cost $799 and $999, but also still had 10/100 Ethernet and otherwise extremely similar hardware ot the mini, and was 2005's 1.4GHz ULV iMac to the much more powerful iMac G5s.

The last generation of Power Macintosh G4s cost slightly less than the Power Macintosh G5, but those were probably getting cheap to make by the end of their run.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
And, if anybody ever gets OS 9 running natively on one, I'd be super happy (they take up so much less space than a G4 tower).
Just to pick a nit: Classic mode is "native" -- it's just boxed into Mac OS X, and a system that "boots" OS 9 is no more native than one that's running classic, it just has fewer other things to fight with, both in terms of application software running reliably and consistently and in terms of the system's resources.

Plus, if somebody does get OS 9 booting directly on a G4 mini, it'll likely be missing platform drivers, making it unstable, or GPU/ethernet/sound drivers, making it unfun to use.

 

butterburger

Well-known member
Just to pick a nit: Classic mode is "native" -- it's just boxed into Mac OS X, and a system that "boots" OS 9 is no more native than one that's running classic,
Well, graphics program rendering is not "as native" as OS 9. Some games do not work in Classic Mode hypervisor/virtualiser, but do run well in OS 9.

Mac Mini G4 is a iBook less battery and panel. I would rather have Titanium PowerBook base (any model after first launch model), than g4mini.

 
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Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
The issue with the eMac is that its big, heavy, and prone to capacitor failure.
I don't know if the 1.42s suffered that issue, there's a specific "2005" revision of the 1.42, it seems.

Well, graphics program rendering is not "as native" as OS 9. Some games do not work in Classic Mode hypervisor/virtualiser, but do run well in OS 9.
Access to hardware is a separate issue than "native." There is a differentiation between Classic Mode (which is ultimately a hypervisor doing virtualization) and booting directly on the hardware, but the code is still natively executing on the processor, and is not being emulated.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Also, a TiBook isn't really going to be any better at anything than a mini except maybe booting Mac OS 9, at which in my experience, it was also pretty bad, and most software never ran much faster on my TIBook than it did on my 450MHz Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White) or my 500MHz "Pismo" PowerBook G4. It will have gigabit Ethernet and that will be literally the only advantage a TiBook will have over a G4 mini, from a hardware perspective.

 

TheWhiteFalcon

Well-known member
The bus speeds on a TiBook would be sloooowww(not that any G4 had great bus speeds). And at least the G4 Mini uses DDR RAM and later revision silicon.

 
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butterburger

Well-known member
Cory5412, TheWhiteFalcon:

I am not calling a TiBook faster, but better for my usage. TiBook base plus AC adapter (compatible with today's Apple AC cables), versus Mini plus peripherals plus larger power brick. Ability to tinker with ease: tool-free access to memory, and obvious access to drives. Mini is much more involved, not easy to open, not easy to visualise components. TiBook has CardBus socket, for more yesteryear fun. PC Card is a tactile piece, joy to use. Mac Mini with just disc slot is no fun, in my opinion.

I am making a mess with words. I just dislike Mini. Yes, B&W and Sawtooth are lovely, but huge and impractical for a bedroom hobbyist with space constraint.

edit add: my intention was to say "more native", jokingly, to resemble Animal Farm "all are equal, but some are more equal than others".

 
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Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Hm, even then, the physical footprint of a TiBook is pretty big. It would be neat if you command-stripped it to the side or back of a monitor, perhaps, I have done that with an Asus netbook, but the TiBook is also very big.

Back in 2005/2006 or so when my own TiBook's (QT2451CEN4M -- I was on the phone with Apple a lot) screen finally failed for the last time and I was running it in perma-desktop mode, I just dropped it on top of a 17-inch CRT I had. If at the time you'd given me the opportunity to trade it for a G4 mini I would probably have said yes so quickly you'd have retroactively felt it in the past. It is insanely inconvenient to use a TiBook as a desktop.

Below is a picture of that desk setup, it was a Viewsonic/OptiQuest CRT with a flat top deck, which was basically the only reason the setup worked at all.


Now, if Apple had introduced a miniature system in 2001/2002/2003 based on TiBook guts like the mini but different, then that would be a different situation, but as it stands, the TiBook itself is pretty bad for that task. I think in 2003, however, Apple was still a little bit off-put from that idea based on what happened with the Cube.

PCMCIA and Cardbus are neat, but what really is there for it these days other than (admittedly helpful) USB controllers or maybe if yours was ordered without Airport, a WaveLAN or a Linksys WPC54G (for OS X)?

I've spent a long part of my Windows-using life buying ThinkPads with as many expansion options as physically possible only to find out that a Sony Ericsson GC86 wasn't even very good or practical when it was new, and that as soon as you buy a cardbus/pcmcia media reader for your camera, you'll buy a new camera that requires a different card reader. Of course, some entire concepts like having a mobile data plan for your laptop have simply changed or moved on since, and now that we're standardized on both phone tethering for mobile data and SD and variants for cameras, those two situations are a little bit more stable.

 

RickNel

Well-known member
They make a nice little box for a basic browsing workstation, a network terminal, a NAS fileserver with USB disk(s) attached, a media server, a device controller, a NAT router  - it's only with heavy graphic applications that you notice the slowness. We tend to overlook that not everything is about the screen performance.

Rick

 
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