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falen5

my first Lisa

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Hey Marcus - they didnt just take out the hard drive and throw it around, they opened the drive itself and  took the platter and the swing arm. They are gone!.

I have no plattern or swing arm. Just the empty case where they used to live!

 

From reading, i think my only hope is one of the cards for the expansion slot. But they are expensive. I have cleaned and restored everything else. Floppy drive looks good after  a good clean and lube. Hopefully its ready to do some work.

 

Now I understand why there are always widget boards for sale on ebay. my chances of getting just the mechanical part of the drive are pretty much zero.

 

those contact pads inside the keyboard are crazy. As others warned (even before i got the machine) they must all be replaced. Another 'fiddely' kind of job.

Ive ordered the materials to make the new contact pads.

That will be fun.

 

Might have the eprom programmer next week. It is due. Really looking forward to reading eproms.

 

question: I imagine the code from an eprom will be in hex. Is there a program that will list the code into some kind of assembly. I would be really interested to see the code that boots up the machine.

Edited by falen5

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Hi falen,

 

oh my... thats cruel anyway xD

yeah, so just leave it as is - a brick is a brick - put it in your shelf [;)]]'> 

 

Hmm these Parallel-Interface cards are not that rare..sometimes one pops up for a good price. I trade mine a while ago :-/ I didn't need it, because I have a LISA 2/5 with builtin Parallelport :lisa2: - my ProFile just hooks up on that...

 

You have three options:

1 - get yourself an working Widgetdrive - nearly impossible nowadays

2 - try that X/Profile board - excellent replacement and you can just hookup an ordinary IDE or CF-card "as Widget/ProFile"

3 - find a Parallel-Interface Card and a working ProFile Drive (5MBs are quite common and easier to find or a 10MB - nearly impossible like an working Widget)

 

Anyway - try booting it up with floppy in first place - you could try MacWorks/Macintosh Emulation ;D

That is, what I did the first years until I got my first working ProFile Drive [:D]]'>  you can check out my Videos about the LISA 2 on my Channel on YT:  look for Apple Lisa 2 MarNoWeb or similar xD

 

For god's sake my keyboard works like a charm - I think it was restored not that long ago? It will be quite a lot of fun from what I read in the threads [}:)]]'>

 

Hmm I don't know such program...would be an interesting thing to see every step from hex to code/assembler/realtime [8D]

I should backup my ROMs - good idea - first ToDo after I'm back from holidays

 

Marcus

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Thanks for the info Marcus

 

I think I will go the X/Profile route. The unpopulated boards are on ebay, love kits!. Would be much happier with an IDE drive than a drive that WILL die anyway.

 

When i opened my keyboard and removed the pcb to have a look at the contacts, the 'spongey' material had degraded to a state where if you touch it, it just crumbles to dust. The good folks on here were 100% right. I have to replace every one of them. Found a good guide online on how to make them. 

 

Looking at your vids. You are as bad as me!!. Computers of all kinds. My german is not that good, but I hear your passion!!. There are not many people that can get so excited opening a box to find something that is totally obsolete , takes up too much space and makes their partner ever more annoyed every time another machine arrives in the door.

 

I have been officially placed on final warning by her good self.

"No more dam computers" she said when she saw the Lisa coming throught the front door.

 

Its all good fun

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If you're comfortable with soldering and kits, you might also consider building an IDEfile, particularly if Patrick Schäfer is still distributing GALs, ROMs, and PCBs for new builds. I built my own a few years ago and have found it to be very dependable. I thought it was a fun kit---there's a lot of soldering to do, maybe more than on the X/ProFile, but not by all that much. An IDEfile does not have the CF socket built-in---you will need to arrange your own IDE to CF adapter. These are easy to find. The X/ProFile also allows you to plug in two drives at once for easy copying, though, which the IDEfile does not do.

 

I built my IDEfile into the case of a broken ProFile, and a scavenged BCD thumbwheel switch from a SCSI drive housing serves as the volume selector. I use a CF card for storage, and since I'm not powering a proper IDE hard drive, 5V and not much current is all I need for the whole show. A tiny switching regulator like this one steps down the power from the original ProFile supply without the heat sink or fan that a linear regulator might need.

 

The red light on the front of the ProFile case still blinks as it should  :lisa: . It's a lot quieter than the real thing, though, and suspicious people might also notice the IDEfile's LCD visible on the back of the drive.

 

Both options are good ones, I think. Best of luck!

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...

Looking at your vids. You are as bad as me!!. Computers of all kinds. My german is not that good, but I hear your passion!!. There are not many people that can get so excited opening a box to find something that is totally obsolete , takes up too much space and makes their partner ever more annoyed every time another machine arrives in the door.

 

I have been officially placed on final warning by her good self.

"No more dam computers" she said when she saw the Lisa coming throught the front door.

 

Its all good fun

Haha, well I'm over that situation too..but we made an arangement: as long I won't put any of these old toys longer than 24h around the rooms (especially living room and bedroom - yep, on last winter days I did a lot of videos in our beedroom xD) she is fine with my hobby - My playground and so my little "Computermuseum" is on the attic ;) a few squaremeters of free space/room for my little machines. One day I will make a small tour around my collection and put it on YT ;)

 

Well, I should make my videos and Homepage in english language too, so it could reach a lot more people - but to be honest - I'm kinda lazy with this... I'm already happy after I could finish a video and just upload it - without editing in most cases. One day i will put subs on my existing videos or I will put a second audio line to them?

 

Do you have a website or similar, videos of your toys? Love to share this hobby with other crazy pple xD

 

Like the good stepleton above already mentioned - an IDEFile would be an interesting and equivalent option besides the X/Profile as replacement.

Recently I was in contact with Dr. Patrick Schäfer - I asked some stuff about Hardware/Drive replacements inside a ProFile Drive - I also thought about, building an IDEFile Drive... I should ask him back about PCB, GAL and ROMs  :lisa2: 

 

Marcus

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Both options are good ones, I think. Best of luck!

Hey stepleton,

 

aren't you THAT genius, who made the NeoWidex tool?? I will try it out in a while when I start my Apple ProFile "Using & Servicing" Project :)

 

Regards,

Marcus

Edited by MarNo84

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Great to see more Lisa owners in Europe! Good luck falen5 with getting yours up and running. I'm lucky - mine only needed a PSU recap... but my keyboard's contacts are nearly all gone so will have to build all new ones to get a full working keyboard.

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Great to see more Lisa owners in Europe! Good luck falen5 with getting yours up and running. I'm lucky - mine only needed a PSU recap... but my keyboard's contacts are nearly all gone so will have to build all new ones to get a full working keyboard.

Oh, I hope I won't have to rebuild mine in near future...I think, it wouldn't damage anything if I just open it and check the pads?

 

Marcus

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When I had to finally fix my keyboard, it was a waterfall effect.  Only a few keys were broken, and after I took off the PCB and started replacing those pads, then more degraded to the point where the keys stopped working.  Now I replaced all of the foam pads with a complete set that DOESN'T work at all.  So I literally have no keyboard now.. be careful :)

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When I had to finally fix my keyboard, it was a waterfall effect.  Only a few keys were broken, and after I took off the PCB and started replacing those pads, then more degraded to the point where the keys stopped working.  Now I replaced all of the foam pads with a complete set that DOESN'T work at all.  So I literally have no keyboard now.. be careful :)

Yep..that's a typical thing with these Pads..nearly the same effect with Commodore SX64 Keyboards ;) never try to fix just one single key..fix them all in one job. Well, I better don't open my keyboard until the first key stops working [8D]

Edited by MarNo84

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Yep..that's a typical thing with these Pads..nearly the same effect with Commodore SX64 Keyboards ;) never try to fix just one single key..fix them all in one job. Well, I better don't open my keyboard until the first key stops working [8D]

 

When you do open your keyboard, as you will have to do eventually (the pads will all degrade someday), please use extreme care when disassembling the caps lock key. The tiny spring and pin that are part of the key locking mechanism can easily fall out, and if they do, since they are extremely small, they can be very difficult to find on a work surface (or the floor!).

 

In fact... during my own key pad replacement, I had the misfortune of having the spring in the caps lock mechanism shoot that little pin right into my eye! No harm done, luckily, and even more fortunately my wife and I managed to find the pin (which bounced off my eye) and spring rolling around on the floor.

 

As dramatic as the whole procedure was for me, I wouldn't let this risk stop you from replacing your key pads---if you are aware of the issue and treat the caps lock key with care, you probably won't have a problem.

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Thats a great bit of info stepleton as I have that repair ahead of me in the near future. First timer!!

 

I already opened the keyboard as far as removing the main pcb to have a look at the pads, took one look and quickly put it back together

 

At what part of the repair are you referring to , when I actually take the caps lock key apart?

 

I thought it was just a case of peeling off the old pads and sticking on new ones ?

 

Really appreciate the heads up

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Thats a great bit of info stepleton as I have that repair ahead of me in the near future. First timer!!

 

I already opened the keyboard as far as removing the main pcb to have a look at the pads, took one look and quickly put it back together

 

At what part of the repair are you referring to , when I actually take the caps lock key apart?

 

I thought it was just a case of peeling off the old pads and sticking on new ones ?

 

Really appreciate the heads up

 

You know, that's actually an excellent question. Now that you mention it, I don't really remember why I had such an experience with the caps lock key---it was a few years ago that I did my pad replacement, and I can't remember why it was necessary to do anything besides dig the old pads out and clip the new ones in place. Why did I even need to mess with that mechanism in the first place?

 

To try and refresh my memory, I did a little search and found this page with lots of pictures of the inside of the keyboard. There isn't a good picture of the caps lock key mechanism, but if you search for the string "bottom key switch profile", the image just above it shows the bottom of the keyswitches, with the caps lock key barely visible all the way to the right. Here is a direct link to the image itself...

 

You can see a white plastic frame surrounding the bottom of the keyswitch, and if I remember correctly, this is a molded piece of plastic that holds the whole locking mechanism in place (and may even incorporate the shaped channel that the pin I mentioned slides around in). My advice is to treat this plastic piece with caution! Try not to let it move, because (if I remember correctly now) if it slips off, the spring and pin will be exposed.

 

Please take this all with a grain of salt---it comes from some old memories, obviously---but one thing is for sure: when replacing your keyboard pads, treat the caps lock key with care!

Edited by stepleton

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Thanks so much stepleton

 

More great info and pictures there. Will most definitely be paying special attention to the caps lock.

There is nothing worse , taking something apart, and that sudden 'ping' as you hear something flying past your head, followed by the ding, ding ding as it hits the floor, never to be seen again.

Its happened to u all. Spending ages , on the floor with a magnafying glass, trying to find a tiny spring or screw or washer.

 

Im still waiting on the eprom programmer, it is due. With some luck i will get the machine to power up.

Still no hard drive for it, so If I can get the machine working the keyboard will be next.

 

I plan on making a video of replacing the pads as i cant find one online.

 

Will be so funny if I have the camera rolling and after your advice the caps lock spring takes off like a scud missile, ill just have to post it.

 

really appreciate the help and advice folks.

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My new eprom programmer finally arrived today

 

I tested the 3 roms on the Lisa

 

The 1 on the IO board and the 2 on the cpu board

 

all 3 (as far as I can tell) are ok.

 

What I did for each rom was as follows.

 

0: downloaded .bin files for all 3 roms.The correct images according to the stickers that i found in the machine. 341-0175 Rev H LO, 341-0176 Rev H Hi, and 341-0281 Rev D

1: Read a rom. Had a look at the Chksum reading

2: Opened the bin file I downloaded for the same chip - The Chksum was the exact same.  For all 3 roms

3: saved the first reading of each rom

4: wrote the downloaded image for each rom to each rom

 

Everything seems to have worked 

 

Result - no change in any way. Machine is still lifeless.

 

When i power on the machine I get no beep. The display comes on but is is just a grey square the size of the screen.

When i hit the power button a second time nothing happens.

The safety switches for the front panel and the rear cover do work. I hold them in place with a cotton bud, power it up, and if i pull out either cotton bud the machine instantly shuts down.

 

if the roms are ok (i think they are anyway) what can i look at next. Is the sy6504A a cpu to run the io board?.

 

Might just bypass the back door switch, power up the machine for a while and see if any of the chips get hot

 

 

Have no Idea where to go from here folks

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Success !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Johnnya101 , ........ you are a legend. That first link you posted said C8 next to the 68000 leaks. I took it off , measured it and it was way off. Instead of 2.2uf it is reading 5.8 uf ( i think)

 

Quickly replaced it , just to see and BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!           My Lisa has finally come to life.

 

I have looked and looked for help with this. Read 2 other 'Lisa fix' tutorials on google groups. But they were all machines that were booting. Mine was totally dead. That link was the first I have read with the exact same problem as mine. C8.

 

Now everything works. It beeps. It boots and when I hit the power button again it shuts down

 

Have tried it with the second memory card and they all work. It is now booting with all 4 cards installed.

 

 

Connected a mouse from a 128k and that works too.

 

Im finally at the desktop where it is looking for something to boot from.

 

I have to try a floppy.

 

Im too happy to even bother right now.  Just going to look at it for a while!!!!

Ive been at this for 2 months.

 

Time to do the keyboard pads.

 

Can a Lisa boot from a floppy, or series of floppies. Think I read somewhere it wont boot without a hard drive.

 

johnnya101  big thanks from Ireland man.

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Edited by falen5

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All of these electrolytic capacitors have finite lifespans. The ones from the 80s are now at the point where they are beginning to fail. All of the capacitors will need replacing at some point.

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I have collected about fifty  68k macs. I have 128k's, 512's, a bucket load of SE's and plus's and have never had to replace any of the caps on their motherboards. As for the classic's and se/30's Ive had to recap all of them.

 

I should of removed a few to test them. I asked if the Lisa suffers from cap leaks but heard nothing.

 

Going to order up a proper replacement, think I will replace the lot of them. The IO board has loads of caps.

 

But for now its working great. It was driving me crazy because the boards, along with the entire machine are in  amazing condition.

 

Will make some boot floppies tonight. Heres a link for the floppys

 http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-12-29-disk-from-images-lisa.htm

 

keyboard to do and then finding a hard drive replacement

 

 

all good fun

 

thanks again johnny

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You're welcome. Never really heard of a Lisa having bad caps either, but everything is failing now. Apple IIs are the things that were around that time frame and don't usually need cap replacements.

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One of my apple II e's was dead. Turned out that 3 of the small caps right next to the power connector were dead. swapped them out and she fired up.

 

Your right johnny , all the old machines are starting to fail now. I got my hands on a TAM last year ( or the year before) god dam battery leaked. Nobody heard of a TAM having battery leak either. I manage to get the motherboard partially working but not completely.

 

From here on all caps are suspicious !!!

 

Just tried making the floppies to boot the Lisa. Got the 2 images onto my color classic. Formatted 2 DD disks to 400k with disk charmer, wrote the images and tried them. No joy.

 

Ill have to dig out the old external floppy for a 128K and write the images with that.

 

I wonder if there are any games that run on a lisa. Would love to find a big ass text adventure and wander away for a few days

Edited by falen5

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I've had one of those Rayovac 4.5V batteries leak onto a 5500 board, it was toast.  The same battery is found in the TAM, so if you have one installed, remove it ASAP!

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