Wiring my computer room for localtalk - topology?

[JAG]

I have a basement computer room that I'm wiring up. I have a ton of ethernet drops between it and the rest of the house (fills a 48 port patch panel) and the last thing I need to do is something about a Localtalk network. I can reuse the ethernet runs for localtalk, but would prefer to run dedicated wiring for both localttalk and phone (not for actual phone use, but modem experiments etc).

I've been reading the tremendously entertaining book from 1993, Networking the Macintosh - A Step-by-Step Guide to Using AppleTalk in Business Environments, by Bill Woodcock and he recommends against a passive star topology, though this is how most houses are wired and would also be most convenient for my wiring situation. I suspect, however, that he's talking about much longer distance runs in a business environment and that shorter runs in a 20 x 14 office would not be a problem.

So, looking for real world input from people who have been there with regards to topology (backbone vs star). Ideally I'd be looking at putting in 8-10 drops throughout computer room that would let me plug whatever Mac I'm working on into a nearby port to get it on my network. Thanks in advance!

 

[Durosity]

Absolutely not an expert on this, but I seem to recall for a LocalTalk network to use a star topology you needed a specific bit of equipment like a Farallon StarController or something like that?

Out of interest how many LocalTalk connections are you planning?

 

[JAG]

I have spots for 10-12 connections, so I'll probably run at least that many. You're right that there was a device called a StarController that was for setting up an active star topology, but you could also run a passive star topology without one. The book I was reading (mentioned above) said this was a Bad Idea™, but not sure if it's just not recommended in large office settings with long runs of cable.

As an aside, I was just this morning able to find a Farallon StarController/24 for sale on an electronics surplus web site. Untested, of course. I'll have to see if I can get it running. Might make my decision for me.

 

[Durosity]

I was just this morning able to find a Farallon StarController/24

Oh now that’ll be an interesting setup! Please document your findings with this.

If you don’t go down that route, I’d probably avoid the star setup. LocalTalk can be flakey even at the best of times.. I imagine that adding extra complications like that would just make for headaches.. especially if it’s all going to go in before the plasterboard. I’d just run it as a backbone system as it was always designed for!

 

[cheesestraws]

I would ask yourself the question "Do I want to debug weird signal issues that nobody's seen since the 1980s?"

If the answer to that is 'yes' - no judgement - go for it, and get the oscilloscope warmed up. If not, stick with a bus, or build yourself a powered repeater. (Would people be interested in a powered LocalTalk hub for star topologies? That might be a fun project).

Don't, though, put localtalk or phone wiring in the walls - you'll just get frustrated later when you want to use them for something else. Put extra CAT6a in, and if you want to run other things over that you can.

Also, if you don't mind a bit of unsolicited advice - put some fibre in while you're at it, if you're installing structured cabling. 10GBaseT over copper is a mess and it's very annoying to be stuck with it, learn from my mistakes here.

 

[JAG]

Oh, I'm already there. I have an HP 1930 48 port switch that is full of Cat6 runs from all over my house and office and have fiber as well for my Proxmox server and Synology with Mellanox ConnectX-3 Pro cards. I was a little shocked at how expensive the SFP+ module to do 10GBaseT to my Mac Studio was as well as how hot it runs.

Now I have to figure out how to run a backbone topology with keystone jacks. I don't think I've ever seen anything that would make that reasonably easy to do.

 

[Durosity]

Now I have to figure out how to run a backbone topology with keystone jacks. I don't think I've ever seen anything that would make that reasonably easy to do.

So there definitely was such a thing. There were 3 main 'computer rooms' in my school back in the 90s that each had about 30 Mac Plus's and Classics (and some Performa 630s later on!!!) and each had a localtalk network wired into some ducting with a nice tidy Serial to BT phone connector (the UKs equivalent of the RJ11 connector because the had to be different didn't they?). Now.. Unfortunately I know nothing of this system beyond that.. but it did exist.

(Would people be interested in a powered LocalTalk hub for star topologies? That might be a fun project).

You're a glutton for punishment aren't you? Also Yes. Good god yes.

 

[pl212]

(Would people be interested in a powered LocalTalk hub for star topologies? That might be a fun project).

Only if it has a custom faceplate like your RackMac

 

[sfiera]

I recall reading a retrospective article about networking problems with a passive star. The short summary is: it was supported up to 4 devices, and the author had problems around 30. A big part, possibly, was all of the terminators adding resistance. I don’t know if omitting some of the termination resistors would improve things or start causing signal reflection problems. (maybe a little of both)

 

[cheesestraws]

You're a glutton for punishment aren't you? Also Yes. Good god yes.

I think this might be relatively easy, actually. Let me go and have a think.

 

[JAG]

I recall reading a retrospective article about networking problems with a passive star. The short summary is: it was supported up to 4 devices, and the author had problems around 30. A big part, possibly, was all of the terminators adding resistance. I don’t know if omitting some of the termination resistors would improve things or start causing signal reflection problems. (maybe a little of both)

I think backbone or active star are really the only viable options at this point. I'll probably just run a length of backbone along two of my long desks where I usually work on my old Macs and call it a day. Appreciate all the advice.

 

[trag]

I ran a passive star of PhoneNet in my house with zero problems. It's still in place, but I don't have anything active on it at the moment.

I wired the house with 37 cat. 5 jacks all terminating in the wiring closet. To form the star, I took a 12 port cat. 5 panel and wired some of the ports together. I think I did one panel with 6 & 6 and another with 4 & 8. So I could have 4, 6 or 8 ports. I may also have wired one full panel for 12, I can't remember any more.

Anyway, the RJ11 plugs work fine in RJ45 jacks. So I just patch the jacks I want on PhoneNet to the appropriate passive star hub. I also used one of those "stars" for multiple telephone extensions since telephone runs fine over cat. 5. Incoming phone line to star, star to all the extensions for land line.

I reserved one of the jacks in my PhoneNet star for an ethernet/LocalTalk bridge so that print jobs could be sent to or from the LocalTalk/PhoneNet segment.

 

[dramirez]

I have a Series 300 and a PN357 with power supplies, they seem to work; but both are 12 ports only. PM if interested.