Techknight™ - LC PDS NETWORK CARD IN A SE/30?

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Techknight™ - LC PDS Network Card etc. in an SE/30 or IIsi? :?:

What's good for the goose . . . [}] ]'>

My first take on this notion was to remove the NIC's Connector and wire it up at a right angle to the SuperMac PDS Adapter as if it were the PowerCache Card on a Twin Slot Adapter. I'd thought to use fairly heavy gauge wires from the address and data thru holes for the Zeners to connect to the thru-holes of the de-soldered LC-PDS connector. Other signals need to be routed around the SuperMac Adapter a/o through the vias on the to the NIC with wire wrap jumper wires, but the first 64 connections are easy! The adaptation of the PDS and its interrupt/slot address reassignment would have been done in the loom.

However, that didn't work out. The Radius_Color_Pivot_II/IIsi must be used as the PDS Adapter in the IIsi's PDS due to its length and shape, so the SuperMac Adapter needs to be plugged into the RCPII/IIsi instead.

Take two:

'>

 

[uniserver]

if genie fixes all 3 of my se/30 boards i will send you one.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

That would be most welcome, THX, uni! [] ]'>

I'm going to be backing up the borked HDD from the QS'02 over the next couple of days. I'm gonna do the "Hacks" folder first so I can get at all the .AI files for the SuperIIsi™ so I can start doing the hookup diagrams and a rough PCB layout for this hack.

Meanwhile, I've got a bunch of battery holders to saw up into suitable pieces. [}] ]'>

edit: how do you like the way the LCIII NIC lines up in the IIsi?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Oh boy, this one is a doozie to explain:

[attachment=0]030PDS-2-LCIII-PDS.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Left side is facing the drives

Right side is facing the backplane

Solder side of the SuperMac PDS Adpter is down, as if it's laying on the inverted lid of the IIsi

LCIII NIC is overlaid above the Adapter with its solder side up (rotated 180 degrees from its normal . . .

. . . and the Adapter PCB would be sandwiched in between the two.

 

[techknight]

Got my video card today. Has jumpers near the PDS connector. Maybe they are slotspace IRQ jumpers?

BTW According to your pic, its basically what I was going to do. But without the usage of these risers and adapters and right angle stacks of nightmares.

Just 1 board, and jumpers. thats it. Tall enough to extend up into the case, but short enough to hold the video card and LC adapter both.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Heh! If it can't be taken over the top, underneath and all around, it ain't worth doing!

[attachment=0]Control_Lines_etc.00.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Here's the diagram of what needs to be reconciled, the Power/Ground, data lines, address lines and misc.TXT are on four other layers of the file.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

So far it looks like another ten or so connections can be made to the Zener thru-holes in the SuperMac PDS Adapter along with all 64 Address and Data lines. So far I've only come up with about ten signals that will need to be tapped from the PDS Pass-thru connector's solder cones to the adapter PCB. There are sure to be more, but it's looking good.

These diagrams show only the control lines, no Address, Data or Power/Ground connections are shown for simplicity.

Right side of diagram:

Jumpers-B-00.2p.jpg[/attachment]

I don't know how this will fit into the SE/30, but it's looking really good for the IIsi, if it will work at all. [] ]'>

 

[uniserver]

man your up late - early

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |)

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

< . . . slurps last bit of first cup of coffee |) >

First: I just realized that this NIC doesn't even have a Declaration ROM! :O

ASANTE TECH, INC. © 1993 MacLC III REV.D

Dunno if that's good or bad, but I'm switching to one of the pair of Plug & Play NICs that olePigeon sourced for me.

Macsense brand: E430 LC PDS Ethernet Card LC PDS P/N: 110-00014-100 Ver. 1.3

The drivers are built into a beautiful little 28pin DIP Socketed DeclROM, so that may make things far easier . . .

. . . or more difficult? :?:

IIRC, these were NIB @ $5 ea, coupled with the SuperMac PDS Adapter and Radius Color Pivot II/IIsi that's about $10 for the grand total . . .

. . . shipping costs additional. :lol:

Second: thank heavens I do incremental versions as backup in case of corrupted files . . .

. . . sometime between 1:30AM and 3:43 AM the file got messed up so I can't open it! No biggie. ;D

< . . . another mug of Java later. >

edit: WooHoo! It just dawned on me, Macsense made a NuBus version of this card (as did Asante for theirs) so the DeclROM's onboard drivers may not make any differentiation for the Slot ID. Like the NuBus version of this NIC, the LC version very likely just makes use of whatever interrupt is available in any slot where it has been installed. There's really no need for two versions of Driver or DeclROM . . .

. . . as I read the docs in Designing Cards & Drivers anyway. :?:

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Ok, I've had my fill of this LC NIC conversion already! It's long past ime to fab some external battery packs for testing on the Duos! :approve:

I've got a physical setup for the IIsi that allows for a wrong angle hacked SuperMac Adapter to flat stack a third card in the IIsi along with acting as the chassis for an LC PDS and its adapter board. I chose another NIC as chance would have it, I haven't got lot of small SE/30/11si Cards to pick from for experimental purposes.

[attachment=7]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Backplane.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Here's how it looks from the Backplane, note the increased room for other I/O I get by switching from the Asante LC NIC to the Plug-n-Play MacSense LC NIC. The crazy standoffs just let menstack it together visualization and sizing.

Thats one SuperMac Adapter, actually acting as a PDS adapter in a NuBus Adapter Card Frame. In the real deal, the frame won't fit when I use the Color Pivot card as the PDS Adapter/riser, but the substitutes work great for now.

[attachment=6]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Top.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Here's the top view . . .

[attachment=5]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Side.2p.jpg[/attachment]

. . . a low angle view from the side . . .

[attachment=4]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Frontside.2p.jpg[/attachment]

. . . another one from the frontside, I should have propped up the second NIC on the Passthru, that's gravity doin' its thing, there is enough clearance even with the adapter card sandwiched in between NIC and SuperMac Card for the extra PDS card.

[attachment=3]LC-NIC_in_IIsi-Oblique.2p.jpg[/attachment]

Finally, here's a higher angle oblique of the assembly, don't have a clue about fitting these critters and the adapter inside an SE/30, but it works out nicely in the IIsi.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's the rough view of the Adpater Card overall, it's pretty good sized do the the offsetting connectors and bits as well as my addition of a wing on the side for relocating the LC NIC's DeclROM, just in case. Not many connections need be jumpered from the Host SuperMac Adapter's pins to make it work, IF it will work at all.

The LC Connector is at the top, the IIsi "Slot" is at the bottom, probably where the control lines missing from the SIP pads in the center will be jumpered, some might be easier to snag from the pass thru connector, dunno, there aren't all that many signals needed. I should have left off the yellow and pink pads from the bottom "connector" and some of the green power and ground connections probably won't be needed as either.

[attachment=2]LC-PDS Adaptation.6.2p.jpg[/attachment]

The paths in the center are vestiges of the traces from my reverse engineering of the SuperMac Adapter. The vast majority of connections are made from headers soldered underneath the unimplemented Zener Diode thru-holes and then soldered or socketed to the adapter board. I can probably get away without de-soldering the LC NIC's connector. By cutting away most of its shroud, the pins can be socketed to or soldered into the matching thru holes in the Adapter PCB.

These two are a set, the key and data from the IIsi/SE/30 PDS are in the top pic. The three red pads on the left end of the diagram are the pads at the far left of the IIsi PDS "connector" where there isn't reallya physical overlap of the cards and all connections would be jumper wires. Even the DeclROM overhang falls short and the existing connector is busy doing its thing anyway.

[attachment=1]LC PDS adaptation.6.Top.2p.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=0]LC PDS adaptation.6.Bot.2p.jpg[/attachment]

If you look at the top diagram, the sections of the LC-Slot signals makes sense, only the far left section, including the 32bit extended slot section is in its actual position. The middle and right end sections are boxed in underneath to truncate the diagram.

If someone wants to take a look at these table to figure out the crap that's ambiguous or just plain off the wall, be . . .

. . . be my guest! )

 

[uniserver]

so i would assume that the ultimate goal to this is to make a PCB that will allow you to install a LC NIC into a se/30, correct

and basically all you really want from this pcb is to act as not only a riser from the SE/30's PDS slot… but also as a patch board that allows PDS to LC PDS electrical compatibility.

i would assume that making a vertical install would be the best.

or were you thinking of asking more of the RISER/PATCH PDS/PDS PCB, did you want it to T off and still run the IIsi Video card as well ?

the next question is… Cost… how much would Such PCB cost… and would it be cost effective?

because i doubt anyone would want to buy one of those IIsi super mac FPU/Riser Cards only to

solder a couple hundred wires

desolder a euro din,

install a LC PDS male din. - for the NIC.

all for a NIC that we are not even sure will work

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Dunno if that's directed at me or techknight, but I'll answer from my view on it:

so i would assume that the ultimate goal to this is to make a PCB that will allow you to install a LC NIC into a se/30, correct

Heh! Isn't that the reason YOU started this thread about techknight's idea? [] ]'>

and basically all you really want from this pcb is to act as not only a riser from the SE/30's PDS slot… but also as a patch board that allows PDS to LC PDS electrical compatibility.

Dunno if it will work that way in the SE/30, you'd likely need two due to the thickness of the IIsi assembly. ********

i would assume that making a vertical install would be the best.

You and techknight would have to figure that out, I don't have an SE/30, so I'm taking a whack a possible IIsi installation.

or were you thinking of asking more of the RISER/PATCH PDS/PDS PCB, did you want it to T off and still run the IIsi Video card as well ?

You guys need to figure that out. For the IIsi, the Video Card is the riser. I've taken pictures of a mock-up with the NuBus frame standing in for the IIsi so it's possible to photograph it at all and to show the convenient positioning of RJ-45 and LED panel in the IIsi. To do that, I had to use a second SuperMac riser because the frame and Radius Color Pivot II/IIsi are physically incompatible.

the next question is… Cost… how much would Such PCB cost… and would it be cost effective?

Dunno, don't care, figuring it out is the fun art, but the total would come in at a far more reasonable cost than the going rate for a PDS NIC. That was your point in the OP.

because i doubt anyone would want to buy one of those IIsi super mac FPU/Riser Cards only to
solder a couple hundred wires

Huh? unless you want to do the 32bit extension, there are a MAXIMUM of 19 jumper wires for signals required as pictured along with the oddball power and ground lines where applicable

Besides, if you don't mind soldering just under a hundred wires, you don't even need the card, that's how I'd test the concept, the PCB layout will map out which wires get soldered or wire wrapped where. [] ]'>

desolder a euro din,

In the case of the NIC, you only need to dremel off the connector"s plastic shroud and solder the adapter directly to its exposed pins

No EuroDin removal involved, unless you want to do the "wrong angle" hack to that $2 card riser card . . .

install a LC PDS male din. - for the NIC.

. . . no installation necessary if the answer above is no. A straight pass thru slot like I have is a great feature, but unnecessary. For most folks, the Video Card and NIC assembly would likely suffice for the SE/30 or IIsi.

all for a NIC that we are not even sure will work

If it looks like the 19 signals I've Isolated don't work out, there's no need to take it any further. [] ]'>

******* You never got back to me on whether there's room for another card next to the RCPII/IIsi (before you run into the PSU?) a couple of pics of your hack showing the physical relationships would be helpful. If there's room for the LC NIC to lay next to the Video Card in the SE/30, I think I just now figured out how to do the hack with some degree of elegance for either machine! [:O] ]'>

p.s. again, someone has to figure out IF this should work, from that mess of control signals, I haven't got a clue. I'm assuming that any of the /PDSxxxxx signals take precedence over the /CPUxxxxx versions, since they aren't present on the SE/30/IIsi PDS.

p.p.s. I think techknight is busy with the internal grayscale conversion rather than this, which is as it should be! [] ]'>

 

[uniserver]

there aint no room buddy--- 1/8 of a inch at the most. between the card and it touching something (in the front)

Yeah i could see taking a super mac card, and a grinder to the euro din , making it proper size for the LC-NIC to connect.

19 lines well that is almost 40 spots to solder… that sounds feasible/reasonable.

So once someone makes a prototype supermac card… trys it…. at that point we will know wether or not to proceed…

i think this is something i can handle…

as long as there is a easy to follow diagram that shows what wire go to where.. and i would assume we would be murdering the (traces we're patching) on the PCB.

If techknight is working on the Radius IIsi video card SE/30 Grey scale mod… then yes… I would say that does take priority for sure.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

there aint no room buddy--- 1/8 of a inch at the most. between the card and it touching something (in the front)

Nope, not in front or back, how wide a card could sit beside the RCPII/IIsi in your SE/30 installation? IOW, can you lay the LC NIC card down next to the Pivot card without it hitting the PSU or anything else? How much room is there to spare on the front, back, underneath (looked like zero in your pic) above and to the right side of the LC NIC? Much rides on that information.

Yeah i could see taking a super mac card, and a grinder to the euro din , making it proper size for the LC-NIC to connect.

Not it at all, you take the four walls surrounding the LC Card EuroDin connector's pins off so that you can solder the exposed LC Card pins directly into thru holes for an LC Slot connector on the adapter PCB. These will remain unpopulated to keep the assembly as thin as possible and get around the need to buy any EuroDin connectors.

19 lines well that is almost 40 spots to solder… that sounds feasible/reasonable . . .
. . . as long as there is a easy to follow diagram that shows what wire go to where.. and i would assume we would be murdering the (traces we're patching) on the PCB.

No trace patching at all involved, those jumper wires get soldered into thru holes designed into the Adapter PCB on one end and to the solder cones of the appropriate pins of the PDS connectors on either side of the SuperMac card. [] ]'>

So once someone makes a prototype supermac card… trys it…. at that point we will know wether or not to proceed…i think this is something i can handle…

Nope, once someone works out the control line translation, then we make a PCB free prototype by soldering a bit less than 100 jumper wire connections and wire wrapping the other ends right onto the NIC's EuroDin connector pins. Annoying, but near zero cost and muuuuuuch faster than laying out the entire PCB. No need to route the 64 address and data lines at all . . . or the control lines for that matter! [] ]'>

If techknight is working on the Radius IIsi video card SE/30 Grey scale mod… then yes… I would say that does take priority for sure.

Damn straight! [] ]'>

 

[uniserver]

well with all those no's and complexity, I'm officially withdrawn from this project.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

All those "No's above just mean it's a lot easier than you'd thought, buddy! :approve:

Some new ones: next revision involves no SuperMac Card, no jumper wires and no EuroDin wall hacking at all. ;D

All I need from you would be the dimensions requested above a/o a couple of pics of your great RCPII/IIsi-in-SE/30 hack roughly showing the relationships of the Pivot card with the SE/30's PSU etc.

Back in? :lol:

edit: determination that the remaining control lines are compatible remains paramount. That's the go-no go for prototyping.

 

[techknight]

Anyone have the correct Eurocard/din connectors I need?

I need a right angle male to plug into the SE/30. I forget how many pins, 120?

Then I also need the right angle female 120 pin mate of course. (for my video card extender).

Then I need a 96-pin straight female, or maybe right-angle. I haven't decided yet. I am going to put both the 120 pin and 96 pin eurocards on the same PCB.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

What you need for the pass thru is a left angle female and you can PM trag. I got several from him, that's what I used to convert the SuperMac PDS Adapter (the wrong angle hack) to a straight up extender board. Ask bbraun where he gets his, he's the only other "wrong angle" hacker I know of, excepting trag, of course.

The connector on the bottom is a true right angle connector. If you use one on the top you wind up needing to hack the keying, no fun.

What size is your adapter and where are you putting the Pivot Card? :?:

 

[techknight]

why would i need a left angle? when i can put the connector on the backside of the PCB.