Remnants of the pre-crash BUG Pickles thread

[jeremywork]

I didn't mean to wait so long to post this back up, but despite losing the thread I think I have most of the attachments saved locally. Sincere apologies if any of this is misattributed. Hope it helps to have it back!

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I think @Nathan_A was the thread initiator, with a post about a Rev D Pickles XA from Yahoo Auctions. Card seems capable of 1376x1024 output with a maximum virtual resolution of 2048x1024. At the time of posting the driver was yet unknown.


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I later found the earlier lower end version of this card, the Rev C XA/Lite. This one only does 1024x768 with a maximum of 1024x1024 virtual, and cannot change resolutions on the fly. @pcamen and I tried to find a reader for the ROM chip but found that it was not readily available on the market.




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@micheledipaola had purchased a different card (either Pickles 24A or 8.24A+, don't remember) and called attention to the DIP switch settings in some available auction photos. No driver was available for this one either.





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Some PDF documentation was located by various members, and @taddy helped to translate some of the Japanese to English for us (Thank you!) Unfortunately I don't have the translated passages saved.

"eizo1994_8.pdf" shows the different features of XA/Lite, XA, and XA/Pro.
"PicklesXA_manual.pdf" is the more complete manual for the XA Series.
"PicklesXAP12_15.pdf" shows the detailed DIP settings for the XA Series.
"Shinbayashi_board.pdf" is a complete listing of the entire lineage of BUG video products.
"Pickles24A_manual.pdf" is the complete manual for the 24A card.

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I don't recall who here was able to make contact with the cards' original designer, Mr. Shinbayashi, who joined the forum as @tshinba and provided us with original driver files for XA, 24, and 24AW cards which were unfortunately missing their resource forks. "cdev.zip" contains these files. A later attempt at recovering the XA series driver was successful and included resource forks, enabling acceleration on @Nathan_A's card and mine. "Pickles Utilities.img.hqx" contains these files.

@tshinba also linked us to a beautiful gallery of BUG products. I don't have the link but I do have the photos and I will post them as a reply in this thread.

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Finally, I was able to find a Rev C XA card myself. I can confirm that stacking the RAM together in the XA/Pro configuration changes nothing in the control panel for the XA, so the ROM from an XA/Pro would be needed to upgrade the XA to XA/Pro. The attached RAMDAC is also the 135MHz part, indicating a different one was used for each speedgrade. I was able to grab a couple 200MHz parts, but don't feel the need to get it swapped until the ROM situation can be sorted. 1376x1024@24 is certainly no slouch of a Nubus resolution, even if 2048x1536 remains just out of reach

 

[jeremywork]

These photos were linked in @tshinba's gallery:

 

[Nathan_A]

How on Earth did you recover all this??? This is fantastic! Thank you so much!

 

[jeremywork]

Glad to do it! Maybe it's simple data-hoarding, but I have an increasingly rational fear of things disappearing from the internet. I just need to get better about organizing it so I don't have to sift through downloads folders across several computers next time

 

[CircuitBored]

I was lucky enough to snag a BUG Pickles 8.24A+ on FromJapan today! It's the revision C card, which I don't think we've seen on this forum before.

Here are the pictures from the listing.





I can't wait to give this card a try - and all thanks to the hard work of the folk here on the MLA! I'll be sure to take some proper illustrative pictures once the card arrives. Fingers crossed it actually works!

I'm wondering how much VRAM these cards actually have. Do we have any benchmarks of these cards or do we need to get benchmarking ourselves?

 

[jeremywork]

I can't wait to give this card a try - and all thanks to the hard work of the folk here on the MLA! I'll be sure to take some proper illustrative pictures once the card arrives. Fingers crossed it actually works!

I'm wondering how much VRAM these cards actually have. Do we have any benchmarks of these cards or do we need to get benchmarking ourselves?

Very nice! From the details in 'Shinbayashi_board.pdf' I gather the 8.24A+ board was either sold as 8A+ or 24A+ (which yours is.) 1024x768 @ 24-bit color would be either 3MB or 2.25MB depending on whether color data is stored as 32bpp or 24bpp.

The actual number of memory bytes needed to support 24 bpp is
640 x 480 x 3 = 921,600. This would seem to fit within 1 MByte of memory
(as is the case with the Apple 8*24 video card), but the Quadras actually
require 2 MBytes of VRAM for this mode. The 8*24 card supports 24 bpp at
640 x 480 by using a storage mode called 'chunky planar' to fully utilize
all its 1 MByte of VRAM. However, this results in having to perform 3
separate memory accesses for each 24-bit pixel read from or written to the
frame buffer. (This is done in hardware so software only performs a
single read or write.) On a NuBus video card, this inefficiency is
partially masked by the synchronization delays which occur at the
processor-bus/NuBus interface. However, when frame buffer memory is
placed directly on the processor bus, this approach results in a nearly 3X
performance degradation. This was judged unacceptable for the Quadras.
Each 24-bit pixel occupies one longword (4-bytes) in VRAM, so the Quadras
actually provide 32 bpp for the 640 x 480 resolution. This pushes the
memory requirement for this mode over the 1 MByte boundary (640 x 480 x 4
= 1,228,800 bytes).

https://imagej.nih.gov/nih-image/download/documents/quadra_video.txt

I don't know that benchmarks are available, though the first task will be to track down working drivers. In the files posted above we probably do have the correct driver's data fork, but the only files complete with resource forks were for the XA series.

 

[CircuitBored]

the first task will be to track down working drivers.

Rats, in my excitement I mistakenly thought that the working drivers were for the card I'd acquired. Is there anything I can do to help find or fabricate these drivers?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

NICE work!

. . . though the first task will be to track down working drivers. In the files posted above we probably do have the correct driver's data fork, but the only files complete with resource forks were for the XA series.

Did any new functions (or resolutions?) appear other than for virtual desktop after you had loaded the "drivers?"
Did you get 1376x1024 output to a display from the card?

I see you've sourced faster versions of the RAMDAC? I wonder if this might affect output resolution, color depth or both? What's your theory there?

Basic resolution support for output from a NuBus card needs to be present in the Declaration ROM for any Slot Manager Architecture card to act as the startup (for watching the extensions/drivers loading) display. "Drivers" usually amount to tweaks to (or replacements of) Apple's Monitors Control Panel functions for any given card.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Dig the (c) Radius 1995 legend on this card:

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/09-deskstudiopro-jpg.35601/

Is tha a Quadra 840AV PDS card?

 

[jeremywork]

Rats, in my excitement I mistakenly thought that the working drivers were for the card I'd acquired. Is there anything I can do to help find or fabricate these drivers?

I'm a bit out of my depth on this, but at the time we originally discovered the resource forks were missing it was thought to be a dead end without recovering the originals. Now that we have complete versions for the XA drivers, perhaps the metadata can be extrapolated since it'll likely be the same creator and creation method. Hopefully there's a way forward.

NICE work!

Thank you! I occasionally still live up to my name

Did any new functions (or resolutions?) appear other than for virtual desktop after you had loaded the "drivers?"
Did you get 1376x1024 output to a display from the card?

I see you've sourced faster versions of the RAMDAC? I wonder if this might affect output resolution, color depth or both? What's your theory there?

No new resolutions appeared when I added the RAM, which I assume means the ROMs are different between the two versions. I don't expect the card will be able to sense which speed of RAMDAC is attached, so my theory was that if more resolutions appeared they wouldn't work without the RAMDAC swap. Assuming I can eventually locate the XA/Pro ROM, if I then get additional resolutions I'll swap the RAMDAC. The final pic in my first post is the XA outputting 1376x1024 to my 445Pro.

Dig the (c) Radius 1995 legend on this card:
https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/09-deskstudiopro-jpg.35601/
Is tha a Quadra 840AV PDS card?

Yeah, I think the BUG DeskStudio Pro and the Radius SpigotPro AV were jointly developed, and both companies sold a version.

 

[olePigeon]

I wonder if the RAM cards are interchangeable between that big card and the XA.

 

[jeremywork]

I wonder if the RAM cards are interchangeable between the DeskStudio and XA.

It looks like they used the same form factor for several cards, though in the case of the XA series they seem to use only double-sided stacking cards and single-sided end-cap cards, always one fully populated and the other half populated. Some of the other models seem to employ double-sided end-cap cards, also in both half populated and fully populated variations.

I'm relatively certain the RAM from the XA and the XA/Lite combine to form the configuration shipped on the XA/Pro.

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/11-picklesxa-pro-jpg.35603/

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/12-pickleshv-jpg.35604/

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/14-hvme-jpg.35606/

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/16-deskstudiouv422-jpg.35608/

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/18-hvplus-pci-jpg.35610/

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?attachments/20-uv422sd-jpg.35612/

 

[olePigeon]

I'm still intensely curious if the card will recognize additional RAM modules if you just keep stacking them on until you have like 12MBs.

 

[jeremywork]

I'm still intensely curious if the card will recognize additional RAM modules if you just keep stacking them on until you have like 12MBs.

Perhaps, though I don't know what you'd practically be able to do with a framebuffer larger than 2048x1536 when the RAMDAC won't go any faster. Maybe a custom ROM could be written to assign some of it for RAM disk/Gworld usage. It seems in general that the ROMs aren't written to detect the RAM, just to expect a certain amount of it installed. Really hope we can locate a reader for the TC58257AF soon...

Edit: and I'm pretty sure the XA/Pro configuration is 12MB, unless they utilize the chunky planar storage method mentioned above in the Quadra Video doc

 

[CircuitBored]

Now that we have complete versions for the XA drivers, perhaps the metadata can be extrapolated since it'll likely be the same creator and creation method. Hopefully there's a way forward.

Please could I have a copy of the raw data? I'd love to take a look at it myself.

 

[jeremywork]

Please could I have a copy of the raw data? I'd love to take a look at it myself.

It’s attached to my first post in ‘cdev.zip’ and the complete XA drivers are in ‘Pickles Utilities.img.hqx’

 

[CircuitBored]

It’s attached to my first post in ‘cdev.zip’

Thank you. I wasn't sure if this was the entirety of the salvaged files or not. Time to have a rummage!

 

[micheledipaola]

@micheledipaola had purchased a different card (either Pickles 24A or 8.24A+, don't remember) and called attention to the DIP switch settings in some available auction photos. No driver was available for this one either.

Hey here I am, thanks for bringing back the thread @jeremywork . I got two BUG cards: Pickles 24A and 24AW - and it was me that tracked down the original designer mr. Shinbayashi who probably hasn't come back here (yet?) after the forum crash / reset.

I tried to fiddle a bit with the 24A / AW files, adding resources from the XA driver to these ones... they seem to work or at least not to crash in the emulator, I have to find the time to test them on actual hardware... also, I just requested to join a FB Mac group from Hong Kong, hoping to find someone with another (working) copy of the 24A / AW drivers..

 

[cheesestraws]

Hold fast, something exciting on the way...

 

[jeremywork]

Hey here I am, thanks for bringing back the thread @jeremywork . I got two BUG cards: Pickles 24A and 24AW - and it was me that tracked down the original designer mr. Shinbayashi who probably hasn't come back here (yet?) after the forum crash / reset.

I tried to fiddle a bit with the 24A / AW files, adding resources from the XA driver to these ones... they seem to work or at least not to crash in the emulator, I have to find the time to test them on actual hardware... also, I just requested to join a FB Mac group from Hong Kong, hoping to find someone with another (working) copy of the 24A / AW drivers..

Thanks for coming to post this! We'd still be nowhere without your contact with Mr. Shinbayashi.

I'd say we should be on the lookout for old mac hard drives with preserved data, but...

Hold fast, something exciting on the way...


View attachment 35693 View attachment 35694

Whoa What was the trick to this?