PowerPup will be based on?

[johnklos]

Well put, Gorgonops. I would just like to point out that FreeBSD and NetBSD people generally get along just fine, and OpenBSD people work with us all the time, but that it's sad that OpenBSD developers often don't feel safe to publicly work with NetBSD and FreeBSD people because of pressure from people like Theo. There's also a lot of code shared between all three projects with the only issue the occasional instance where OpenBSD imports code and forgets to credit the authors.

We (NetBSD) do build for release using a cross-building system (which is incredibly easy to use), but we also have plenty of people who test self-builds which certainly takes patience on m68k and VAX machines.

My question regarding technical reasons about a preference of OpenBSD over, say, NetBSD was because I am very familiar with NetBSD on PowerPC Macs, but I'm not very familiar with the state of OpenBSD on PowerPC Macs. I really would like to know if there are things which are further along, like SMP support for 604 machines, Xserve support, G5 support, and so on. I'd really like to know if you know.

 

[PackingTape]

In my experience, Debian runs great on even quite old power macs. I'd used it successfully on a PB1400 as my main computer for almost a year, actually. To justify making a whole new distribution I think PowerPup would need to have a more specific goal (like turning an old iMac into, say, a server or a internet kiosk or whatever) then just being an all around linux like Debian. Did you have anything in mind?

 

[PowerPup]

The following is from powerpup.yi.org

The goal of this project is to make a Lightweight Linux System that works like Puppy, runs completely in ram and can save changes to a hard drive or usb stick, all in a PPC environment. Because there are plenty of good G3 macs and such out there, but Mac OS 9 is too old, and sometimes Mac OS X is slow. Puppy is ideal for these kind of computers.

Essentially what I to make is a Puplet. That is, something that is like Puppy Linux, but with my own customizations to it.

 

[Bunsen]

Much as I hate to say it (considering what forum we're on and all) it seems like New World ROM is a reasonable cut-off point these days.

 

[johnklos]

Much as I hate to say it (considering what forum we're on and all) it seems like New World ROM is a reasonable cut-off point these days.

If you're talking about a GUI heavy OS, then that might be reasonable, but if you're talking about server and/or lightweight GUI, Old World Macs are still more than capable machines.

 

[MidnightCommando]

I've found that hardware support for New World machines is a lot nicer on the free *nices, and also that we can boot directly to nix on those instead of going through mac os.

I second Bunsen here. New World ROMs are a good requirement.

 

[johnklos]

I've found that hardware support for New World machines is a lot nicer on the free *nices, and also that we can boot directly to nix on those instead of going through mac os.

I think you're confusing m68k with PowerPC.

 

[Bunsen]

I thought a MacOS boot sector was required even on PPC Old World machines?

 

[PowerPup]

Yes, it usually is required.

There are two bootloader for Old World PPCs, BootX and And the Apple MkLinux Booter.

A third one called quik, works with Old World Macs with Open firmware <3.0. This one, like yaboot, doesn't need to run from Mac OS

Then there are a couple for 68k Macs, EMILE and Penguin.

EMILE runs from a floppy so it doens't need Mac OS installed.

 

[johnklos]

I thought a MacOS boot sector was required even on PPC Old World machines?

All Open Firmware machines can boot BSD without MacOS. NuBus PowerMacs require Mac OS to run MkLinux and it appears that other GNU/Linux distros (Yellow Dog, Debian) also use the MacOS boot method to boot. I don't see any examples of booting directly to an alternate OS on NuBus machines without MacOS. Debian (and others, I assume) can use Quik on Old World machines to boot without MacOS.

With regards to m68k and BSD, MacOS is always needed to boot.

 

[ClassicHasClass]

My 7300 NetBSD server (helsinki.floodgap.com) does not have a scrap of MacOS on it -- it boots NetBSD from an internal PATA drive using a Sonnet Tempo Trio. Just required a bit of digging in Open Firmware to figure out the right magic spell to utter.

 

[Gorgonops]

The "quik" Old World Mac bootloader has been around for a long, long time. The first Mac I ran Linux on was a PowerMac 8500 which I found in a junk pile at the place I was working at the time, in mid-2000. It had been branded "flaky" and had its hard disk pulled out. On a slow day I reseated the CPU card, hooked the box up to a pair of external SUN 4GB hard drives I also found in the junk pile, and installed LinuxPPC 2000 on it... which included the Quik bootloader. Not a scrap of MacOS there, either. (Remember, the drive that had it got yanked out before I even got there.)

So, yeah, the idea that you need MacOS to boot a PCI PowerMac into Linux is a misconception.

The argument for "New World" that is more compelling is if the goal is to make a "LiveCD" sort of distribution you sort of need USB ports if the plan is to save persistent files to a flash drive. I suppose you could lug a SCSI hard drive and cable around with you... Although, really, I sort of question why the world needs a LiveCD Mac Linux distribution. The argument in the PC world is that PCs are everywhere, so with just a CD and a memory stick you can have your own favorite desktop wherever you go. Macs... are not everywhere.

 

[PowerPup]

A very good point Gorgonops, I was starting to realize that as I going over things.

My initial idea was that if some one wasn't sure that they wanted to replace Max OS on their Mac, they could boot up from the disc and leave their HD intact, And if they did like it they had some choices, leave Mac OS intact and save personal changes on the HD, or install PowerPup and replace Mac OS. Or set up dual boot.

I could set it up like that Ubuntu CD and make a live CD that doesn't save changes. But in my mind that kinda undermines the whole point of making it a LiveCD.

But if I don't have the LIveCD feature or saving from it. Then I'm just making a Debian CD with a custom selection of packages, and I might as well just have people download the Debian netinstall CD and then download a script that will install the other packages and such, like the way linuxopjemac is doing it with his MintPPC project.

So I am gong over the goals I wish to accomplish with PowerPup, and how would I go about obtaining those goals. I don't exactly like the script idea, because that would mean more waiting for the end user, downloading the netinstall CD, waiting for it to install, then downloading the other packages from the internet, again...

btw, I found the Debian Live Project, too bad their online scripts don't let me choose PPC.Otherwise my work would have been that much simpler. I'll probably use their scripts to make the LiveCD on my PowerMac G4.

 

[ChristTrekker]

Do you have a default DE in mind? Given your target hardware goals, I'm thinking maybe EDE/LXDE/Xfce.

 

[PowerPup]

I've been thinking about that too, at first I was planning to just use JWM since that is what Puppy's default is. And I would use or make a custom theme. I hadn't heard of EDE, looks interesting, but feels a little too "windows 95/98ish."

I haven't messed with LXDE yet, but it looks promising.

And it's been a while since I used Xfce, I guess I'll have to try them both out.

 

[Bunsen]

MintPPC

That iLinux site is a great resource I didn't previously know about - thanks for linking it.

Discovered there: The T2 build environment might be worth investigating.

With T2 you can define targets for various purposes, ranging from embedded linux systems with a few MB of size over server configurations to a full desktop system featuring X.Org foundation, KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice.Org and many more. Those targets can be compiled for use on the most common architectures: Alpha, ARM, HPPA (incl. HPPA64), IA64, MIPS, PowerPC (incl. PowerPC-64), SPARC (incl. SPARC64), SuperH, x86 (incl. x86-64) - theoretically any GCC/Linux supported one.
T2 comes with many predefined targets (desktop, router, live CD ...) and over 2000 package descriptions ready to build. A quick introduction how to compile a target for your favorite architecture can be found here.

 

[ChristTrekker]

I hadn't heard of EDE, looks interesting, but feels a little too "windows 95/98ish."

It's definitely designed to resemble the classic Win95 look. The lead developer (whom I correspond with) made that choice deliberately so that people wouldn't have to learn yet another interface. The part I like about it, is that it is fast enough to be marginally usable even on 68k machines. :O 8-o (I've done it.) FLTK is that light. Version 2.0 is in β, and it should be released when he can finish up one more module.

I haven't messed with LXDE yet, but it looks promising.

If you give it a whirl, post your experience somewhere. This is one of those things I'd like to get around to, but just don't have time. Development seems pretty active, but beyond that I just don't know.

And it's been a while since I used Xfce, I guess I'll have to try them both out.

It's powerful, complete, and usable. Decent theming and customization without going overboard. Faster than KDE or GNOME, but still heavier than the other two AFAICT. You'll just have to try it on your target systems and see if the user experience is good.

I was going to mention Étoilé for consideration as well, but it's just not stable enough right now. Maybe I'll give it a shot when 0.5 (a more user-oriented preview) is released. The screenshots show it to be very "Mac-like" in general design, so I'm excited about that. Unfortunately development seems to be very slow.

 

[PowerPup]

@Bunsen: Yeah, I actually tried the T2 project already, Puppy Linux had been using it to compile & build itself for a while before the BarryK invented Woof, which use the packages of other distros. I was having trouble using it, probably because the custom scripts that were made for Puppy Linux weren't all that PPC compatible.

If you give it a whirl, post your experience somewhere. This is one of those things I'd like to get around to, but just don't have time. Development seems pretty active, but beyond that I just don't know.

Will do.

Ah, that's right, I've seen FLTK before. And I've been keeping an eye on Étoilé, it would be fun really fun to use.