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PowerBook 5300-gotchas?

croissantking

Well-known member
I’ve just rebuilt my PB1400c battery. I used tabbed ‘A’ cells that I got off eBay, and soldered them together. I get between 1:30 to 2 hours runtime in this configuration.

The correct batteries to get are the 4/3A ones if you want the most runtime possible, but you ideally need a spot welder as clearance is tight.

IMG_5205.jpeg
 

Snial

Well-known member
The 1400 needs eight 4/3A cells WITHOUT the nubs on the positive terminal. Having the nubs will not allow them to fit in the battery pack.

I’ve just rebuilt my PB1400c battery. I used tabbed ‘A’ cells that I got off eBay, and soldered them together. I get between 1:30 to 2 hours runtime in this configuration.

The correct batteries to get are the 4/3A ones if you want the most runtime possible, but you ideally need a spot welder as clearance is tight.

View attachment 67776
Brilliant, I guess I could do the same thing! I'm a bit confused as to why we only need to solder them together if we've got tabbed 'A' cells, but need to spot weld if they don't have nubs? For example, is it because of the surface area on the ends of the battery preventing soldering from working (or I need a MW soldering iron?) Or the fact that solder isn't flush whereas a spot weld is? As it is, I think I might take the same approach as for @croissantking, since it looks like you're getting about 80% of the battery for 10% of the effort/ specialised resources and batteries of that era were pretty low range anyway. What do the connections look like from the side? And why choose Ebay, rather than RS components for new batteries, much cheaper?

I sort of ignore them, I'm really not a PB5300 fan. For a while it was my only classic Mac and... Personally I think they are the worst computer Apple ever made. I can't think of anything I dislike more.

Back when I was trying to use it I bought a focus video/ethernet card for it and so was just using it closed with a keyboard, mouse and monitor.
I'm pretty sure PB5300 fans aren't even PB5300 fans, except for the kind of masochistic fascination I have with the memory of my old one (I mean, monochrome 4-bit grey scale, dual scan at 100MHz :) ). To an extent, the 1400c is what I wish the 5300 had been, but seeing my friend's working at all, will be a marvel :) !

Basically he worked for a company that bought a whole load, as desktop computer replacements, then sold them back to the employees after a year for £100 each or so. People must have hated them!
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
That's a horrible price drop for only a year... What version of the 5300 were they?

Today, my view on them is that a fully working, intact 5300c or 5300ce makes a decent but slow portable. The problem is that getting one to the point where it's fully working, and stays in one piece can be challenging. At least you can 3D print hinge standoff replacements.

On the 1400 - it's better in MANY ways, and worse in one major way, the hinges. People complain about the 5300 hinges all the time since they had problems when they were new, but nowadays when both do, the 5300 has the advantage. There's a proven fix for the 5300 - 3D printing new standoffs and installing them. Same fix that's worked great in the 100 and 500 series for years. There's still no proven fix for the 1400 housing cracking (which is a far worse failure than blown out standoffs). The best you can do is install a 3D printed part that replaces the hinge mounts and has a big plastic sheet that acts as a stress relief. I installed two of them in my 1400s last year, and so far, it's slowing the cracking, but not fixing it. And both were an utter nightmare to install. WAY better than nothing, but not a full fix. That's Quanta laptops in my experience (1400 is based on a Quanta design). They're deceptively poorly built. You'll pick one up, handle them, and they'll feel super high quality, but then you eventually discover some major construction flaw. For the 1400, it's the hinges. For my WinBook FX, also made by Quanta, I'm convinced that it's literally impossible to get the display housing apart without breaking all the clips, and it's basically entirely held together by them. The FX's internal frame is also make of pretty weak plastic. Both are otherwise excellent laptops though, which is the thing.
If you're looking at them for stationary use, the 1400 wins easily. You can keep it open on display to avoid hinge issues, and just use it like a desktop. 166MHz 1400c version with maxed out RAM is a fast, nice system with an excellent keyboard.
For a laptop you're planning on rebuilding the battery on though, the 5300 does have an advantage in that you can hold them together with some patchwork. The hardest part of getting one portable would probably just be finding a battery to rebuild that hasn't been completely destroyed by corrosion. Boy do those 5300 batteries leak.
The advantages and disadvantages of both is why my 3400c is my favorite from the time. It's basically a 5300 with a lot of the flaws fixed. WAY faster, built a little better, CD-ROM support, way better speakers than both the 5300 and the 1400. A 5300 feels sluggish, a 1400/166 feels fast, but a 3400c/240 running on solid state storage is VERY fast. You can easily notice the difference between the two.
Of course, it has its own disadvantages. The hinge mounts can fail and there's no 3D printed part for them yet, but you can prevent this with some preventative epoxy work. The PRAM batteries leak and kill them, but you can just find one working and then remove it. The keyboard is worse than the 1400. The biggest though is that it's so far impossible to rebuild the batteries due to the BMS they used. I personally lucked into 5 working original packs, which is why it's my main portable right now. It would be nice if someone was able to reverse engineer the BMS.
BUT - The 3400c WILL WORK with 5300 batteries as well, though they'll provide lower runtime than the Lithium ones would. That fact will at least keep it possible to use one on battery after the last of the original 3400 batteries die.

The conclusion after this big wall of text? Laptops can be a pain, and each of the three IMO has their clear advantages and disadvantages.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
Basically he worked for a company that bought a whole load, as desktop computer replacements, then sold them back to the employees after a year for £100 each or so. People must have hated them!
Ask what desktops they replaced - I'm curious if the laptops were slower or faster :ROFLMAO:
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
As for the batteries, I think the “tabs” they are referring to are small strips of metal, not the “nubs” on positive terminals. When I got my 4/3A cells, I ordered them at batteriesplus…and they wrap up the cells and tack weld on tabs for you free of charge.
 

Snial

Well-known member
That's a horrible price drop for only a year... What version of the 5300 were they?
It's mentioned earlier in the thread, but here's the spec with a pic!
1704751804401.png
Brit Macintosh affacciandos may recognise the edge of the logo at the RHS: they were bought from Jigsaw, a big mail-order Mac seller in the 1990s.
Today, my view on them is that a fully working, intact 5300c or 5300ce makes a decent but slow portable. The problem is that getting one to the point where it's fully working, and stays in one piece can be challenging. At least you can 3D print hinge standoff replacements.

<snip> hinges <snip> There's a proven fix for the 5300 <snip> There's still no proven fix for the 1400 housing cracking <snip Quanta>
If you're looking at them for stationary use, the 1400 wins easily. You can keep it open on display to avoid hinge issues, and just use it like a desktop.<snip>
I actually do leave the display open on my 1400c, but not previously because of the housing cracking, but to reduce the rate the metal LCD cable braiding will continue to disintegrate. From now, I have two reasons (I can see hairline cracks). When I do have to close the lids on either, I do it slowly, maybe 5s to 10s!
<snip> rebuilding the battery <snip> completely destroyed by corrosion. Boy do those 5300 batteries leak.
<snip> is why my 3400c is my favorite <snip> a 5300 with a lot of the flaws fixed <snip> a 3400c/240 running on solid state storage is VERY fast.
Yes, the 3400c is legend, I guess that's why they based the first G3 on it. My 'bridging-generations' approach to collections means that in many respects, I prefer the earlier PPCs over later ones and it's about reproducing the experience of the early machines. The 603e for me is "the little PowerPC that could".. be ramped up to crazy speeds while still being smaller, cheaper & less power-hungry than the 601. The G3 was a game-changer, sure, but as it's basically an integer double-barrelled 603e (with a bigger L1 cache & BTC), it sort of feels like a hack; whereas the later G4s are the pinnacle of the PowerPC era (true MESI multi-processing, AltiVec, deeper pipelines, cache-tastic) and G5s the hulking 64-bit swansong that never quite made it.

So, in my mind I view my PB1400c/166 as being like my 5300 working as well as my earlier PM4400/160 (yes I bought one, loved it, and ain't afraid to admit it :-D ).


BUT - <snip> 5300 batteries as well, <snip> Lithium ones would.
Yes, pity we can't put rechargeable lithium cells in a 1400 or 5300 battery case (maybe we can, it just sounds a bit dodgy due to the need for NiMH charging algorithms and current sensors).

The conclusion after this big wall of text? Laptops can be a pain, and each of the three IMO has their clear advantages and disadvantages.
Which is part of the fun :) !
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
Which is part of the fun :) !
Not to mention a good excuse to own all 3 ;)
1704753399172.jpeg1704753407158.jpeg1704753422206.jpeg

Yes, the 3400c is legend, I guess that's why they based the first G3 on it.
Also worth noting that's it's PCI-based while the previous two are NuBus, so even a maxed out G3-upgraded 1400 will still likely lose some benchmarks (3400c disk benches way faster for instance). Higher RAM ceiling, CardBus support, built in Ethernet, VGA Out, the list goes out.
Yes, pity we can't put rechargeable lithium cells in a 1400 or 5300 battery case (maybe we can, it just sounds a bit dodgy due to the need for NiMH charging algorithms and current sensors).
Definitely possible, but you'd need to build a custom BMS that will convert the NiMH charging current to one that the Li-Ions won't get all explode-ey over. @360alaska pulled it off for the PowerBook 100.

Then there's the 2400c to mention... Do I even dare 🤣
That's one I've not mentioned to get my hands on yet.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
Definitely possible, but you'd need to build a custom BMS that will convert the NiMH charging current to one that the Li-Ions won't get all explode-ey over. @360alaska pulled it off for the PowerBook 100.
You wouldn't need to build one, just buy one off the shelf that was small enough.

I have a couple of home made power banks in the house - BMU and 5v boost converter cable tied to an 18650 ;)
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
The 1400's battery does have a rudimentary BMS on-board, and I'd hazard a guess that the computer wouldn't charge any battery that doesn't have that BMS present or a clone of it. It's a single 3-pin through-hole package. Even if it didn't though, would an off-the-shelf solution be able to fit in a 1400 battery while still allowing enough space to have enough cells that the Lithium battery would outperform a 1400 battery rebuilt with modern NiMH cells?
 

Phipli

Well-known member
The 1400's battery does have a rudimentary BMS on-board, and I'd hazard a guess that the computer wouldn't charge any battery that doesn't have that BMS present or a clone of it. It's a single 3-pin through-hole package. Even if it didn't though, would an off-the-shelf solution be able to fit in a 1400 battery while still allowing enough space to have enough cells that the Lithium battery would outperform a 1400 battery rebuilt with modern NiMH cells?
The computer doesn't need to be involved with the BMS as long as it has a power feed. Recognising the battery, you could keep the original BMS if it is a problem and perhaps just stop it charging the battery, perhaps with diodes? Don't know, haven't considered it.

Size wise, things have got smaller since the 90s. There is loads of room in there.

@GRudolf94 - am I been dumb?
 

3lectr1cPPC

Well-known member
This one may be dumb enough that it doesn’t, but I doubt it. The BMS talks to the computer and tells it info on cell charge and such. It likely would not detect the battery without it present. It probably would run off the battery if you unplugged it while it was on, but Mac OS would just instantly put it into sleep mode. My 500 series batteries are rebuilt but the EMM BMS boards in both are not working properly, and that’s the behavior they show. The 1400 may be different, but I do doubt it.
If you just left it in there with no cells it would just report dead and the computer also wouldn’t run off of it.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
This one may be dumb enough that it doesn’t, but I doubt it. The BMS talks to the computer and tells it info on cell charge and such. It likely would not detect the battery without it present. It probably would run off the battery if you unplugged it while it was on, but Mac OS would just instantly put it into sleep mode. My 500 series batteries are rebuilt but the EMM BMS boards in both are not working properly, and that’s the behavior they show. The 1400 may be different, but I do doubt it.
If you just left it in there with no cells it would just report dead and the computer also wouldn’t run off of it.
Yes, if that is the case, like I said, you leave the the stock BMS in place and just feed it a fixed voltage so it constantly reports a charge state.

It wouldn't be much more effort to lie to it more by feeding it a translation of the charge state, but personally I wouldn't bother.
 

GRudolf94

Well-known member
If it's anything like PBDuos, the 3-pin package is not a BMS, just a Dallas IDPROM. The only battery management is a thermistor.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
So the laptop is the BMS, in which case, you set it up so the output voltage from the battery is switched between "raw" in discharge and a false value during charging to trigger the laptop to supply electricity. If you used a fixed "charge me" voltage, you wouldn't get charge state info, and during discharge the time remaining would be inaccurate... Especially if you used a buck boost to provide a constant voltage.

I'd use an MCU to switch the output to the "charge me" voltage when the lithiums were low, so the laptop would report low battery charge. Wouldn't be elegant, but never mind.

To actually plan it properly I'd need to compare discharge curves for the two types, but I don't see why providing something wouldn't be possible. You could stick a much smaller Lithium battery in the casing and fill the rest with power electronics. Lithiums are smaller than similar energy NiMH.

@3lectr1cPPC It's possible, but I'm not sat on a premade design here. I'm just surprised to be told it can't be done!
 

LaPorta

Well-known member
My simplistic mind just does the following: if it was in there to start, it goes in when I rebuild it!
 
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