Mac-to-VGA monitor adapter struggles

[Phipli]

I'm not sure what happened with the "no sync" cards. My adapter detected neither CSYNC nor H/VSYNC on these. Maybe that's because my adapter doesn't work right, or because the cards only output sync on green. The 0v card was more puzzling, and I'm not sure it wasn't measurement error. If it was truly 0v then it means all three of the sync signals were constantly at 0, or were not even connected.

As I sit here now reviewing the data, I suspect at least some of those NuBus cards only have sync on green, and no other sync signals.

But in short, none of these examples would obviously benefit from a self-powered sync splitter adapter in the same way as the IIci and IIsi. The Q700 doesn't need it since it already has separate h+v sync. Three of the other cards didn't seem to have any sync, so something weird is happening with them. The Mac II monochrome card could maybe benefit from an adapter like this, but the self-powered voltage was quite low around 3.2-3.5v, which is not great. I wish I had more of these cards to experiment with at home, instead of just a brief few minutes of testing at the meetup.

The Toby should support Composite. See attached, Page 2, Technical Specifications, Output Signals.

The early ones don't support Sense pins and its weird on these early cards :

 

[bigmessowires]

Is the "Macintosh II High-Resolution Display Video Card" the same at the Toby? I thought they were similar but not necessarily the same. That document seems to be about the HRDVC and not the earlier Toby. Somebody kindly donated a Toby card, which I'll test more soon.

I agree the results don't seem to make a lot of sense.

 

[Phipli]

Is the "Macintosh II High-Resolution Display Video Card" the same at the Toby? I thought they were similar but not necessarily the same. That document seems to be about the HRDVC and not the earlier Toby. Somebody kindly donated a Toby card, which I'll test more soon.

I agree the results don't seem to make a lot of sense.

Both cards are extremely similar, and I think I remember both report in TattleTech as "Toby".

 

[bigmessowires]

Here is the video card that I was given yesterday. It's labeled Macintosh II Video Card, 820-0198-C.





Forgetting about my own VGA adapter for a moment, I can't get this card to work in my Mac IIci with a standard VGA adapter (the Griffin PnP). Tried the 68 and 1268 DIP settings while connected to my Dell monitor that seems to handle anything, but I don't get any image. If I connect a second monitor to the built-in video, and open the Monitors control panel, it only shows one monitor present. It's like the NuBus video card isn't there at all.

I should be able to just plug this in and have it work without configuration, no? Maybe the card is dead, or my NuBus slot is bad.

 

[bigmessowires]

I tried this video card in all three NuBus slots, with the Griffin PnP adapter, my adapter, and no monitor connected. I never got any image to appear on the Dell monitor, and no second monitor ever appeared in the Monitors control panel (using built-in video to get a working desktop).

I also connected the DB-15 breakout and wired it with pin 4 grounded, to simulate what it would look like with an Apple 13" RGB monitor connected. Using the logic analyzer I measured all the sync outputs and the green video output at constant 0 volts.

Unless I've missed some necessary configuration step, I think this card is dead? But at the meetup yesterday we tried two different Toby cards and they both had this same behavior. It seems harder to believe they were both dead.

 

[Melkhior]

Unless I've missed some necessary configuration step, I think this card is dead.

There's tools to dump information from the declaration rom, such as 'Slots', that you can find here: https://staticky.com/mirrors/ftp.ap..._Chest/Devices_-_Hardware/NuBus_Slot_Manager/

If all else fails, you can try to access the relevant ROM addresses over NuBus to see if something answers, even wrongly. For such an old card, probably starts at $FssF_FFFC (0xFssFFFFc) and lower. If you get a bus error or similar, the card has serious issue in the NuBus handling logic or address lines/buffers (so nothing answers the request). If you get some values, then they might provide a clue at what's going on - failure of a data line/buffers, dead ROM, ...

 

[Phipli]

I tried this video card in all three NuBus slots, with the Griffin PnP adapter, my adapter, and no monitor connected. I never got any image to appear on the Dell monitor, and no second monitor ever appeared in the Monitors control panel (using built-in video to get a working desktop).

They only seem to work with 10 switch adapters for a reason I don't understand, plus they only work with some monitors.

Try a Dell monitor with a ten switch... If I remember correctly my Toby works with my Dell, but not with my ViewSonic??? Really sorry but I haven't got a Toby set up at the moment, and I can't really remember well.

Unless I've missed some necessary configuration step, I think this card is dead.

Seems like it might be, but these things tend to be fixable. It's usually bent or broken pins, or traces cut by bad storage. They're electrically pretty resilient.

Here is the video card that I was given yesterday. It's labeled Macintosh II Video Card, 820-0198-C.

Yeah, that's an early-ish one, before they reordered the board for the "High Resolution" version.

 

[bigmessowires]

After closer inspection, this card is definitely damaged on the back, probably by exploded battery goo. The back side of the NuBus connector is also stained bright green. There are many areas where the soldermask is eaten away and traces are partly corroded, and at least one place where the trace is definitely broken (upper-left near the text 8Y8). I don't really want a project within a project, so I'll probably set this aside and look for a different video card for testing. Anybody have a Toby card to donate to the cause of science?

 

[Phipli]

After closer inspection, this card is definitely damaged on the back, probably by exploded battery goo. The back side of the NuBus connector is also stained bright green. There are many areas where the soldermask is eaten away and traces are partly corroded, and at least one place where the trace is definitely broken (upper-left near the text 8Y8). I don't really want a project within a project, so I'll probably set this aside and look for a different video card for testing. Anybody have a Toby card to donate to the cause of science?

View attachment 63572

View attachment 63573

That doesn't look too bad. Most of the damage is mechanical from poor handling. The corrosion is actually fairly minor. Do you have an ultrasonic cleaner? To get rid of any remaining battery nasties.

Then continuity test any obvious damage and bridge breaks using enamel wire (aka "magnet wire") - the stuff you can solder through the enamel is the best stuff. You'll probably have that working in a couple of hours!

Repairs are more fun that using these things half the time

 

[Phipli]

After closer inspection, this card is definitely damaged on the back, probably by exploded battery goo. The back side of the NuBus connector is also stained bright green. There are many areas where the soldermask is eaten away and traces are partly corroded, and at least one place where the trace is definitely broken (upper-left near the text 8Y8). I don't really want a project within a project, so I'll probably set this aside and look for a different video card for testing. Anybody have a Toby card to donate to the cause of science?

View attachment 63572

View attachment 63573

These are the areas I can see potential damage. I would start by checking trace continuity through these areas (and anywhere else you can see a scratch or scuff crossing traces)

 

[bigmessowires]

Still no luck, unfortunately. I repaired the broken trace near 8Y8, and tested all the other damaged areas include the areas you circled. I checked for shorts to adjacent traces as well as broken traces, but everything tested OK. I made another pass of the back side of the card under magnification. The front side looks fine. I also checked the supply voltage at one of the chips while the computer was running and found 4.8V. So everything seems OK but there's still no image, no sync or video signals, and nothing in the Monitors control panel.

 

[bigmessowires]

Am I wrong for thinking I can install this in a Mac IIci and get a dual monitor system with the IIci built-in video? Or does it not work like that?

 

[mdeverhart]

Am I wrong for thinking I can install this in a Mac IIci and get a dual monitor system with the IIci built-in video? Or does it not work like that?

It should work like that. Melkhior linked to a NuBus slot utility that should dump info about installed NuBus cards, and it probably worth using that (or something like it) to see if the card is even detected.

 

[bigmessowires]

There's tools to dump information from the declaration rom, such as 'Slots', that you can find here: https://staticky.com/mirrors/ftp.ap..._Chest/Devices_-_Hardware/NuBus_Slot_Manager/

I've loaded the Slots tool, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. I have my IIci populated with an Ethernet card and the graphics card, and the only entry in the Slots menu is Slot 0. All the other slots are grayed out. I tried the options for Use Slot Mgr and Use Config ROM, with the same results. The data for Slot 0 shows lots of nice hexadecimal numbers, but nothing obvious that I can see that might suggest what type of device it is or how to get data about other slots.

 

[bigmessowires]

Now I'm wondering if my IIci may actually have a bad NuBus controller. I have an Ethernet card installed, but I can't remember if I've ever used it - definitely not any time recently. When I turn on Appletalk and then open System 7's Network control panel, it offers LocalTalk as an option but not EtherTalk, which makes me suspicious it hasn't detected the card (Farallon Etherwave NuBus)

 

[bigmessowires]

Hmm... some searching reveals that "IIci with dead NuBus slots" is a somewhat common complaint:

IIci dead Nubus slots

I have posted a couple of times on here about my IIci with dead Nubus slots. I am downsizing and wondering what to do with the unit, and came across this on Reddit: Anyone here seen this problem and found this the solution? Two small (and inexpensive) components near the Nubus slots are said...

68kmla.org

https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageApple/comments/iorzl0
Luckily I have two other NuBus Macs that I can... oh wait, I gave them both away yesterday.

 

[Melkhior]

I've loaded the Slots tool, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at.

The Slot Manager view of the system, which is limited to a bunch of 'slot manager resources'. Structured data describing the hardware, coming straight from the Declaration ROMs. Slot 0 is conceptually the host itself, NuBus & PDS live at $9 to $E.

I have my IIci populated with an Ethernet card and the graphics card, and the only entry in the Slots menu is Slot 0.

That's not good. IIci should have slot $C, $D and $E, with $E closest to the cache slot and $C to the side of the case (DCDMF3 p128). Any working card should have at least one entry visible in 'Slots' for the appropriate slot.

If otherwise known good card are not visible, it means something is likely broken - the Slot Manager didn't see the card at boot, and it's unlikely to be a purely software problem. Primary candidate on the way are the various buffer chips and the NuChip. I made some comments in that thread that might be helpful.

 

[Phipli]

Now I'm wondering if my IIci may actually have a bad NuBus controller. I have an Ethernet card installed, but I can't remember if I've ever used it - definitely not any time recently. When I turn on Appletalk and then open System 7's Network control panel, it offers LocalTalk as an option but not EtherTalk, which makes me suspicious it hasn't detected the card (Farallon Etherwave NuBus)

Grab version 2.59 of TattleTech. That will also tell you what nubus cards are seen by the system.

TattleTech - Macintosh Garden

TattleTech is a System Profiler, Tech Support tool, and Bug Reporter application. It was formerly called TattleTale.

macintoshgarden.org

Do you have any other nubus macs?

 

[Phipli]

Still no luck, unfortunately. I repaired the broken trace near 8Y8, and tested all the other damaged areas include the areas you circled. I checked for shorts to adjacent traces as well as broken traces, but everything tested OK. I made another pass of the back side of the card under magnification. The front side looks fine. I also checked the supply voltage at one of the chips while the computer was running and found 4.8V. So everything seems OK but there's still no image, no sync or video signals, and nothing in the Monitors control panel.

Did you catch this one?

Am I wrong for thinking I can install this in a Mac IIci and get a dual monitor system with the IIci built-in video? Or does it not work like that?

Yeah, dual screening works trivially on all macs with expansion slots. Most cards only show a display in the monitors control panel if one is connected, but I think the Toby might be old enough that it always shows a monitor whether one is connected or not. Mine does anyway.

This might be the difference between the older ones without sense pins.

 

[Phipli]

Hmm... some searching reveals that "IIci with dead NuBus slots" is a somewhat common complaint:

IIci dead Nubus slots

I have posted a couple of times on here about my IIci with dead Nubus slots. I am downsizing and wondering what to do with the unit, and came across this on Reddit: Anyone here seen this problem and found this the solution? Two small (and inexpensive) components near the Nubus slots are said...

68kmla.org

https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageApple/comments/iorzl0
Luckily I have two other NuBus Macs that I can... oh wait, I gave them both away yesterday.

I suspect... People forcing cache cards into the wrong slot might have been a cause. But not based on any evidence. I've seen eBay listings with the cache card in the wrong place. *Shudders*