Highest Version of System Software on Mac 512K & 512Ke

[Anonymous Freak]

I'll check my 6.0.3 disks when I get home.

 

[Paralel]

I found these two bits on the internets

Use the "Mac Plus, 512Ke, 512K ..." Installer Script in the Utilities Folder on the System Tools disk to update an existing System Folder on the Hard Disk 20.

This second bit was part of a conversation discussing the programs and more modern Finder versions on a stock 512K using 64K roms:

Apparently the new Finders jump directly in and out of the ROM at absolute locations, because during the errant call to GetMenu, Get Item is also called and on exit does a JSR (A0) to a location above the 64K ROM image -- apparently into a not existant 128K ROM routine.
Although I cannot confirm this, the new Finders also seem to be doing strange things to the trap dispatcher, as well as patching other ROM routines -- especially in the Resource Manager.

This might explain why the system can't handle newer finders.

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Anyway, my search is still on for that elusive INIT Utility (which may or may not be a proper name). Is there no one among us who has the original 1988/1989 System 6.0.3 installer floppies that shipped with the Macintosh SE/30?

Well, my 6.0.3 floppies for the SE/30 do not have anything even vaguely called INIT Utility.

Just to be sure it isn't something completely non-obvious, though, I'll throw 6.0.3 on my SE/30, and hook up my HD20 to see what happens. (This may not be done until the weekend, though; I think I have files on the SE/30 that would need to be transferred off first.)

 

[JDW]

Could you either list all the files on each of the 6.0.3 floppies or show us screen shots of the file listing? For as Mac128 pointed out earlier in this thread, the mysterious "INIT Utility" may not in fact be a proper name. It could be named something else.

But the closing paragraph in that Apple article still has me wondering. Why do they say "do not distribute" if in fact it can be found on the 6.0.3 disks? It makes no sense. Can someone make sense of it all? Would someone among us who was a Mac developer around 1989 know?

 

[Mac128]

This is the line I keep coming back to in the Apple TIL: "System 6.0.3 Tools Disk (included with the Macintosh SE/30)"

And this is the question no one on the forum ever answered – was there a custom install System disk set when the SE/30 was first released? In other words, a custom System 6.0.3 Tools Disk released only with the SE/30. Only someone who has an original Jan-Sept 1989 SE/30 with originally included System install disks would be able to answer this. Was there an SE/30 only Tools Disk? If so, this is where I would expect to find the INIT.

Either way, I expect the "Utility" is an INIT, not likely including the word "INIT" or "Utility" in the name, though I believe it would be identified by type?

So, I think we are looking for an INIT file on the System 6.0.3 Tools Disk only, and perhaps only on a custom disk which came with the SE/30 and not the regular 6.0.3 distribution set. Considering the number of SE/30s Apple sold in the first 8 months, I have to imagine someone knows the answer to this question.

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Good point. I am fairly certain that my disk set came with an SE/30, but not 100% positive. The installer does have "Plus", "SE", "SE/30", and "II Family" as possible install options.

 

[JDW]

beachycove sent me a PM to say that his SE/30 with all the original disks and manuals is in fact System 6.0.5, not 6.0.3. This means his SE/30 is not the earliest SE/30 version, and so it comes as no surprise that his 6.0.5 disks do not have the elusive "INIT Utility" (which again, may not be a proper name).

I was also given access to a certain FTP server (macdomain.org) which has a comprehensive Mac System Software selection available. I downloaded the four *.bin files corresponding to the System 6.0.3 installer disks. Suffice it to say, I cannot find anything corresponding to the so-called "INIT Utility." However, I did note that whoever prepare these was a real slacker. Despite the fact that there is one image entitled "Utilities 1.img" and another "Utilities 2.img," both images are in fact identical and have the same exact contents -- Utilities 1. Nevertheless, I went through all the files and then compared the contents with 6.0.3 Images from Apple (with the except of Utilities 2, which is not available at macdomain.org). They are identical.

Here is a complete catalog of the contents of the System 6.0.5 800k floppy images from Apple:

System Tools

• System Folder
  Backgrounder
  Clipboard File
  Color
  DA Handler
  Easy Access
  Finder
  General
  Key Layout
  Keyboard
  Monitors
  Mouse
  MultiFinder
  Scrapbook File
  Sound
  Startup Device
  System
  

Setup Folder

• Apple HD SC Setup
  Installer
  Installer Scripts
  Macintosh II Family Script
  Macintosh Plus Script
  Macintosh SE Script
  Macintosh SE/30 Script
  

TeachText

Read Me

Utilities 1

• System Folder
  Access Privileges
  AppleShare
  Clipboard File
  Color
  Easy Access
  Finder
  General
  Key Layout
  Keyboard
  Monitors
  Mouse
  Scrapbook File
  Sound
  Startup Device
  System
  

Special Installer Scripts

• AppleShare Script
  Minimum II Family Script
  Minimum Plus Script
  Minimum SE Script
  Minimum SE/30 Script
  

Installer

Apple HD SC Setup

Disk First Aid

HDBackup

Responder

Utilities 2

• CloseView
  Map
  MacroMaker Folder
  MacroMaker
  MacroMaker Help
  Macros

Font/DA Mover Folder

• Desk Accessories
  Font/DA Mover
  Fonts

Apple File Exchange Folder

• Apple File Exchange
  DCA-RFT/MacWrite

Printing Tools

• LaserWriter
  PrintMonitor
  Laser Prep
  ImageWriter
  AppleTalk ImageWriter
  LQ ImageWriter
  LQ AppleTalk ImageWriter
  LaserWriter IISC

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Those are the exact contents of my 6.0.3 disks. (I've been trying to get my screenshot moved to my main Mac, to no avail. It's stuck in PICT format on a 7.6 Mac at the moment.)

 

[Paralel]

I have a feeling that the best chance at this point is to hack the System file so that "Minimal" installation error doesn't appear and stop the boot process.

 

[JDW]

I have a feeling that the best chance at this point is to hack the System file so that "Minimal" installation error doesn't appear and stop the boot process.

I do not follow you. I have been talking about getting the serial (non-SCSI) HD20 hard drive to work with an SE/30 computer. Toward that end, Apple's technical article mentions something they call an "INIT Utility" which supposedly allows copying the contents of the HD20 to the SE/30's hard drive. And there is an indication that this elusive utility/INIT was on a very early set of System 6.0.3 disks, hence my time in listing out the contents of the disk images currently available for download from Apple's website.

So to repeat, the aim here is to get the HD20 to play nicely with the SE/30 in the HD20's stock "serial" condition (i.e., not with any SCSI interface hacks). And so, this discussion has nothing to do with OS "installation errors" or the "boot process."

 

[H3NRY]

According to this, system 6.0.8 can be slimmed down under 400K and will run on a 512K.

http://www.mac512.com/macwebpages/qamac128.htm

I remember there were special super-small versions of various System files floating around for the early 400K floppies. This is assuming anyone is still discussing the original subject. The title doesn't mention SE30s or HD20s - I think a couple of threads have gotten tangled.

 

[Mac128]

Henry, some of us have tried gyounk's method – no go (at least not as published). It will work with a 128K ROM, but not with the 64K ROM and HD20 INIT. Unfortunately his site is notoriously flawed, and over the years many of us have contacted him about it. He refuses to directly respond to questions for clarification, nor does he update his site's information once called into question.

 

[JDW]

Henry, Mac128 is correct. Indeed, this thread serves as the single most important and accurate resource on what System software will work on a Mac 512k, giving special consideration to the ROM version.

For specifics on what will and will not run under the Macintosh 512k with 64k ROMs, please start reading within this thread starting at this post.

Believe me, I spent many hours testing different System and Finder versions on my Mac512 and my reports are provided in this thread. Any other websites that disagree with the data in these reports are flawed in some way. It is not arrogance that says so, it is first-hand experience. But I applaud and encourage others to conduct the same System software tests as I did. It is a learning experience and it makes one better understand the truth of what has been reported here. It's easy to conduct System software boot tests, assuming you have a Mac 512k with the stock 64k ROMs and a functioning floppy drive.

Suffice to to say, what works on a 512ke with 128k ROMs will necessarily work on a 512k with 64k ROMs, despite what a few websites (even highly respectable ones) report on the subject. In other words, some Finder 6.x versions will work in conjunction with a pre-6 "System" file on a Mac 512k with 64k ROMs, but no version 6.x "System" file will work on the 64k ROMs. Nor will Systems 4.2 or 4.3 work on a 64k ROM Mac512. The closest you are going to come to the feel of System 6 on your 512k with 64k ROMs is to use System file 4.1 and Finder file 6.x. But again, don't just take my words at face value. That's what most of us have done in the past with regard to what is written on those "flawed" websites. Test it yourself and confirm it! Then report back here so we all know someone other than myself has confirmed it. Then at some point we need to get those flawed websites to correct their information.

 

[Osgeld]

System software will work on a Mac 512k, giving special consideration to the ROM version.

minus 50% of the content talking about a hd20 on a se/30? I was thinking the same thing as Henry as the post in question was on topic for the thread, just not whatever the heck you guys are on

Highest Version of System Software on Mac 512K & 512Ke

I do not follow you. I have been talking about getting the serial (non-SCSI) HD20 hard drive to work with an SE/30 computer.

:?: :?:

 

[JDW]

Osgeld, as I am sure you are well aware after having read and understood every single post in this thread (as I have), the opening post in this thread started off by talking about the "HD20 INIT." And as you surely know, that INIT has implications for the Mac 512k, Mac 512ke, various Systems that run on those two Macs, as well as the HD20 serial hard disk itself. So that is the reason there is a mention of the HD20 at all in this thread. Moreover, the way that I was able to test System versions so extensively on my Mac 512k with 64k ROMs is that I used my SE/30 to download disk images and create 400k and 800k floppies for use on my Mac512. Why? Because it is far easier to get the SE/30 connected to the internet to download needed software than it is to do so with the Mac 512k with 64k ROMs. Moreoever, I included System software testing while booting off my HD20 when connected to my Mac 512k. And so, because of the amount of time it was taking me to conduct these tests, I realized during the process that I could be more productive if I were able to get my HD20 to connect directly with my SE/30, rather than just do everything by floppy (or by LAN). So while HD20 connectivity with an SE/30 may appear on the outset to be completely off-topic, it is in fact very much intertwined with this discussion.

Now, with regard to my reply to paralel, there is logic behind that as well. For you see, I only this month started posting in this thread again -- posting here because we had spoken about that topic before, namely the SE/30 and HD20. paralel's second post is the one you are quoting, and he posted that after I had been discussing the SE/30 and HD20 topic with others and since he quoted nothing at all, it was easy to see he was not following the more recent discussion. Moreover, his initial post about the "HD20 INIT" gave evidence that he was drawing conclusions incorrectly about the past and recent discussions, hence my own reply, which in no way was intended to upset him or anyone else.

Now to stimulate your mind in a way that strictly adheres to the title of this thread, I would ask that if you can find a simple hack to get System file 4.2 or 4.3 to boot a Mac 512k with 64k ROMs, I am very open to testing that hack. I would love to find a way to boot my 512k with a System file version higher than 4.1.

 

[Osgeld]

um yea I did not read 2/3rds of that

the post seems like a simple thing, I have mac + accessory, what can I run on it?

there is an entire section on this forum that is all about hacks, good luck and god speed!

 

[Mac128]

the post seems like a simple thing, I have mac + accessory, what can I run on it? there is an entire section on this forum that is all about hacks, good luck and god speed!

What the hell are you going on about? Nothing in this thread, which I started, has anything to do with a hack. The question is and always has been, what's the highest system that can be run on a 512K or 512Ke (hacked or otherwise for that matter). And where do you get this "Mac + accessory" bit?

Frankly I welcome the discussion of the INIT Utility which allows the SE/30 to access the HD20 as it provides insight as to the limitations of the 512K and differences with the 512Ke and later system incompatibilities. But this is not a hack, it's an official solution provided by Apple, as well as something I might not have otherwise learned about. And JDW is correct every thread in this forum tends to wander a bit off topic from time to time, but I see anything pertaining to the HD20 INIT as relevant vis-a-vis the 512K, for which it was first introduced.

But thanks for playing. If you're not interested in a particular thread discussion and where the active participants take it, then move on, but don't spoil everybody else's fun.

 

[yuhong]

Suffice to to say, what works on a 512ke with 128k ROMs will necessarily work on a 512k with 64k ROMs, despite what a few websites (even highly respectable ones) report on the subject...

Yep, the 64K and 128K ROMs are completely different code and require different ROM patches, and what probably is happening is that System 4.2 have deleted the 64K ROM patches from the System file. Similarly one reason System 7.6 won't run on a Mac older than the IIci is that Apple has again deleted the ROM patches for ROMs older than the 32-bit clean $067C ROMs from the System file.

 

[slomacuser]

I have checked mine two sets of System software 6.0.3, one from 1988 and one from 1989, there is no special file on them, listing is the same as on other 6.0.3 sets

 

[Mac128]

Yup, I wouldn't expect it to be on the 1988 disk, but it should be on a 1989 disk. It has to be a custom SE/30 Tools Disk then, or this is yet one more erroneous mystery TIL on Apple's site.