Highest Version of System Software on Mac 512K & 512Ke

[JDW]

it would be nice to know exactly what is hanging up System 5 during boot, most likely it is a resource which is looking for something in a specific ROM location which is not in the 64K ROMs. I assume you tried both with and without the HD20 INIT.

Yes. I tested with and without the HD20 INIT. But again, the ID=12 crash at boot occurs before the HD20 INIT even has a chance to load.

I also remove all but one DA and most of the fonts (except for the ones used by the System) in order to make the System 4.2 and 4.3 files small enough to fit on a 400k disk along with the 98k Finder. So clearly, the use of Font/DA Mover is not the solution here.

It's also not an issue of the System Folder being not blessed. I always make it a point to create the System folders on the 512, and I always double-click the System Folder after the System and Finder files are copied inside, just to make sure it's blessed. (Seriously, sometimes a mere opening of the System Folder will "bless" it.)

So what I did was to create an 800k floppy off the disk image I was given, and I then put that in my 512, copied over the System to a 400k disk, used Font/DA Mover to delete some fonts and DA's in order to shrink the file size, then I copied over the Finder, putting both files into a System Folder and then opening that System Folder to ensure it was blessed. I then tried to boot. I would then get a crash, and I then put the HD20 INIT into that same System Folder and tried the boot process again. But I then got that same ID=12 error again. And remember, that ID=12 appears BEFORE the HD20 INIT even loads (I know this because when the INIT does loas, you always see a notification of such in the Welcome to Macintosh dialog, and I see the LED flash once on my external 800k drive).

As to the "hand over" working on my HD20, I think I tested 4.3 on it in the past and got a bomb. But I don't want to rely on my memory though, so I will need to reconfirm that point.

 

[Mac128]

I always double-click the System Folder after the System and Finder files are copied inside, just to make sure it's blessed. (Seriously, sometimes a mere opening of the System Folder will "bless" it.)

So what I did was to create an 800k floppy off the disk image I was given, and I then put that in my 512, copied over the System to a 400k disk, used Font/DA Mover to delete some fonts and DA's in order to shrink the file size, then I copied over the Finder, putting both files into a System Folder and then opening that System Folder to ensure it was blessed.

"Blessed" may be the wrong term here. The idea of blessing a folder is more of System 6 & 7 thing. I'm not sure the pre-System 6 systems worked that way. This is what I was thinking of when I referenced the above and may not apply here as the symptoms are differnt: http://homepage.mac.com/senorwences/mfs-floppies/resurrect-floppies.html

Did you drag-copy the files out of the 4.2 System folder, or did you use the installer? Granted, I am using Mini vMac to check those systems, but I did install them on a Mac Plus emulator using the minimal install option for the Mac Plus and both 4.2 & 4.3 booted the emulated 512K, without the HD20 files. I installed them on 800K MFS disks, then used DA Mover to reduce the files for 400K MFS disks. Both worked fine. What I do know about Mini vMac is that duplicating the same procedure with System 6 generates a system freeze at startup, so that seems to be consistent between virtual and real. However, that is not to say that the disk image drivers aren't somehow compensating for something that System 4.2 & 4.3 encounter in the real hardware. Additionally, the HD20 INIT is not compatible with Mini vMac for some reason (it is likely looking for a real drive) and causes the system to hang on load (I have addressed the problem with the developer). This happens under 4.2/4.3 as well, though I get an error ID=10 where it would normally just go into an endless white box loop with earlier systems.

Whether you use MultiFinder or not, the System code has been re-written to support it and this may have an adverse affect on the startup routine with 64K ROMs. The HD20 INIT may not be supported with RAM HFS & drivers. However, if 4.1 startup disk will hand-off to 4.2/4.3 on the HD20, then we'll have a clearer picture, since we know it will hand off at the Finder level.

 

[JDW]

Well, all I can add about "blessed" System Folders is that when I have a System 4.2 or 4.3 or 6.x System Folder on an 800k HFS disk, I see a little icon inside that System Folder if it is blessed. Yank out the System or Finder and that icon goes away (and so does the blessing -- it won't boot).

Interestingly, however, if I put a System and Finder (ver. 4.2 and higher) inside a System Folder on a 400k MFS disk, I don't see the icon, even if I open and then close the System Folder.

Now, to answer your other question... No I did not use the installer. I dragged and dropped the System and Finder files. Why? Because I have a Mac 512 and the minimum installer said Mac Plus. To avoid trouble, I just copied the System and Finder off the disk, using the steps I described in my post above.

And yes, I will test the System 4.2/4.3 hand-off on my HD20 and report back.

 

[Mac128]

In another note of consistency between real and virtual: In Mini vMac, I created a disk exactly the way you did, by dragging the System and Finder out of the System Folder on the System Tools disk onto an 800K MFS disk. Unlike the 800K MFS disk I created with the Plus installer, I immediately experienced a crash with error ID=12. The same error occurs when I reduce it to a 400K MFS disk. Here's the differences between the PLUS install and the FINDER copy:

______System_Finder

PLUS____340___100_

FINDER__328___100_

Obviously, the Plus installer is adding 12K of resources to the System not present in the HFS System Tools Folder (and in those days, that was a LOT). Keep in mind the Installer is for ANY Mac that understands HFS 800K. Since this includes several revisions to ROM resources following the Plus, I would not be surprised that the 128K ROM has code that bridges 64K ROM compatibility, which the SE and up changed, as evidenced by the general releases for 4.0+ were on 800K disks only. In which case, to retain full compatibility with the Plus, certain resources must be included in the system to map the older ROM properly (disclaimer: this is purely specious reasoning based on my limited understanding of System/ROM interaction). If you find the Plus install works, then these systems definitely deserve a Res-Edit look to see exactly what accounts for the differences that allow one to work and not another. That might further shed some light on what to look for in System 6 as well.

 

[bigD]

This thread highlights exactly why I love this forum.

 

[JDW]

Well, here's some more to love...

I just finished testing System files 4.2 and 4.3. Both with great to boot the HD20. Yeah! But again, they will lock up my Mac 512 with an ID=12 error if I try to boot off a floppy disk.

I confirmed proper operation of these two Systems on my HD20 by copying the System and Finder files by hand over to the System Folder on the HD20, and also by using the Installer on the System Tools disk for 4.2 and 4.3. The HD20 boots fine in either case.

The hand-over at boot time is smooth. I boot off a 400k floppy in the internal drive which has the HD20 INIT. Then at the Welcome to Macintosh screen, I see the HD20 INIT load. At that point, the HD20 starts to take over the boot sequence and the Welcome to Macintosh box goes blank. It looks like a crash, but a few seconds later, I'm at the desktop, the computer having been booted by System 4.2 or 4.3 on my HD20. Success!

Now, here's the kicker. When I use the installer on my System Tools 4.3 disk, I choose Macintosh Plus installation and then clicked the Drive button until my HD20 was selected. The installer then took some time "calculating sizes" and then I was able to perform the install. When finished, I quit the installer and then was taken back to the desktop. I then restarted the computer, inserted by 400k boot floppy, then booted off System 4.3 on my HD20 -- or so I thought. But under the Apple menu you can get information on the System and Finder versions. When I do that though, it says I have System 6.0 and Finder 6.1! What? I just installed off a System 4.3 System Tools disk. How then is it telling me this? So I then click once on the System file in the Finder and do a CMD-I (Get Info). Yes, it tells me it's version 6.0. But get this, when I launch SysVersion, it tells me the System file is in fact version 4.3. What gives? I haven't the faintest idea.

Now, I also see that MultiFinder is installed by the System Tools 4.3 disk. Of course, if I click once on my HD20 and then choose Set Startup, I am able to choose to boot with MultiFinder. However, when I restart, I boot off my 400k floppy again, which then hands over control of my Mac to the HD20. But upon booting the HD20, Multifinder is not active. I don't think this is a lack of memory because the About box tells me I still have a lot of free memory, even when running System 4.3. More likely, I cannot run MultiFinder because I cannot restart and then directly boot off the HD20. I think the fact that I put in the 400k disk is preventing MultiFinder from loading.

MultiFinder aside though, I am still baffled by the System version. Is it 4.3 or 6.0, for goodness sake? I cannot see why a System 4.3 installer disk would put 6.0 on my computer. Perhaps the individual who gave me this disk would know?

Next, I tested various flavors of System 6. All failedon the HD20. I had a System 6.0.3 installer disk in my 800k drive and I double-clicked the HD SC Setup app. It gave me an error saying it couldn't proceed because I didn't have a SCSI port. It went back to the Finder, and I could see that control of the Mac had been switched over to the System 6 Tools Disk, but a second later it crashed with ID=26. I then rebooted and tried the Installer on that System 6 disk. But it always crashes with an ID=24 while it's "calculating sizes." Manually dragging a System file 6 and Finder file 6 to my HD20 will result in a crash at boot.

So this confirms that no flavor of System 6 is going to work on a Mac512 with 64k ROMs. But it also confirms that Systems 4.2 and 4.3 will boot if used on the HD20 -- so that Wiki entry needs an update!

 

[Patnukem]

good to know I might have to update my 512k software.

 

[Mac128]

I just finished testing System files 4.2 and 4.3. Both with great to boot the HD20. Yeah! But again, they will lock up my Mac 512 with an ID=12 error if I try to boot off a floppy disk.

Just to confirm, you used the installer to create your 400K 4.2/4.3 boot disks? If so, it is most odd that it works flawlessly on Mini vMac, but not on a real Mac. In which case, the only differences between them at the boot level is the fact that Mini vMac patches the floppy driver to read from an image instead of a real disk, which is why the HD20 INIT is incompatible as it tries to patch the disk driver which is already patched. (The HD20 INIT is not needed to boot the 512K under System 4.3).

under the Apple menu you can get information on the System and Finder versions. When I do that though, it says I have System 6.0 and Finder 6.1! What? I just installed off a System 4.3 System Tools disk. How then is it telling me this? So I then click once on the System file in the Finder and do a CMD-I (Get Info). Yes, it tells me it's version 6.0. But get this, when I launch SysVersion, it tells me the System file is in fact version 4.3.

I am not really surprised by this. Apple routinely changed system versions just prior to a release and since 4.3 was so close to the 6.0 not to mention using MultiFinder, I can see whatever call the Finder Makes pulling up a pre-release ID from someplace. SysVersion is looking at the actual version in the System file code, which I thought the Finder did too, but it could easily be looking elsewhere.

More likely, I cannot run MultiFinder because I cannot restart and then directly boot off the HD20. I think the fact that I put in the 400k disk is preventing MultiFinder from loading.

Yes I would agree with this, MultiFinder no doubt loads well before the HD20 since it manipulates RAM. It would be great to see what happens when you boot from an external 800K MFS disk with MultiFinder, but if you cannot get the 512K to boot 4.2/4.3 to boot off a floppy then I guess we'll never know.

Next, I tested various flavors of System 6. All failedon the HD20. I had a System 6.0.3 installer disk in my 800k drive and I double-clicked the HD SC Setup app. It gave me an error saying it couldn't proceed because I didn't have a SCSI port.
So this confirms that no flavor of System 6 is going to work on a Mac512 with 64k ROMs. But it also confirms that Systems 4.2 and 4.3 will boot if used on the HD20 -- so that Wiki entry needs an update!

Thanks for the System 6 check. The SCSI message is interesting, it almost suggests that System 6 requires a SCSI port, which would certainly exempt the 64K ROMs. As for the 4.2/4.3 I would still like to understand why it's not booting from a floppy. Could these systems somehow patch the 400K driver location in the 64K ROM so that it won't load from it? Seems a bit excessive, but possible.

 

[JDW]

you used the installer to create your 400K 4.2/4.3 boot disks?

No. I copied the System file over to a 400k disk by hand. I then used Font/DA Mover to strip out all but one DA and many of the fonts (New York, Venice -- those not connected with OS operation). When I then made enough space, I then copied over the 100k Finder file. Both files then came in at just under 400k. Had I used the installer, it would not have squeezed the files down small enough to make them fit on a 400k disk.

But now that I think about it, my HD20 is formatted HFS. I did not make my 400k disk HFS -- I just formatted it in the default MFS manner. So perhaps making the 400k boot floppy HFS would enable the machine to boot of System 4.2 or 4.3? Guess I will need to test that next.

 

[Mac128]

I doubt HFS would work. I just wanted to verify that you used the installer to make an 800k MFS disk and then reduced the files in size on the 800K disk and copied from that onto your 400k MFS disk. This is what I did with my successful Mini vMac tests and I further dragged the files out of the System Folder just to be sure. I did not use the HD20 INIT.

I know technically installing to an HFS 800K disk and then transferring to a 400K MFS disk should work and even installing to the HD-20. However, when one is dealing with a boot issue it is best to take all the variables out of the mix. The HD-20 has a notorious history of being incompatible with some software and in particular formatting issues. Even using the Font/DA Mover could corrupt a system file so that it will not boot. I also prefer to keep files completely within the environment it is being used in if possible, in this case MFS.

1. pre-format an 800K MFS disk using the "magic system" on a 512K

2. pre-format a 400K MFS disk on a 512

--

3. Boot up a 128K+ ROM Mac with 4.2/4.3 installer

4. Install a Minimal Plus System on the 800K MFS disk

5. Strip all but one DA out of the 800K MFS System with Font/DA Mover v.3.0 or above (serious bugs in earlier versions)

6. Copy the reduced System & Finder to the 400K MFS disk

--

7. Boot 512K from 400K MFS 4.2/4.3 disk

 

[JDW]

I don't know why I even set forth on this test. When I came to the end, I realized how stupid I was. What I fool I was in even thinking of booting off an HFS 400k disk on my Mac512. No HFS disk will work without the HD20 INIT on a Mac with 64k ROMs!

Well, here's what I did:

No, Mac128, I did not use the "Installer" from my 4.2 or 4.3 Tools disks to install the System and Finder for my previous tests in this thread. In those tests, I yanked the System and Finder files off the Tools disk itself, and slimmed the System file down. But today, I decided to give the Installer a go.

Well, using the Installer was a complete disaster. As I told you folks before, I cannot get even the Mac Plus installation to fit on a 400k disk (I need 39k more space). So I attempted doing it on an 800k disk. Bad idea.

I booted off a 400k disk, then inserted my 800k System Tools disk (for System 4.2) into my external 800k drive. I ran the installer, ejected the Tools disk, and inserted by blank 800k disk in the external drive. I then clicked the Mac Plus install. During the time it "calculated sizes" I had to swap disks (between my Tools disk and the 800k destination disk) about 30 times. After that I clicked the Install button, and it was downhill from there. I swapped between my two 800k disks 200 times. I kid you not. Two hundred times. (Yes, I counted.) I began cursing the names of each member of the Mac development team at about 50 swaps, and by 150 I was about to dial up my local hit man to hunt down those guys! Seriously, this disk swapping madness brought me back to 1985, when I vividly recall having such swapping headaches on a daily basis. We so often admire and praise people like Andy Hertzfeld for their achievements, but we often forget their failures! Disk swapping is a headache at 5 times, but at 200 times we're talking mental breakdown.

And get this, even at 200 times, it still wasn't done! I was about to explode so I rebooted and checked what had been written to my 800k destination disk. What?! A measly 186k of the System file alone! I figured that if each swap would have copied over 1k at a time, I should have 200k on the disk. But oh no! Hertzfeld! !@#$%^&

And so, I gave up on trying to "install" 4.2 (or 4.3) on an 800k disk. So I booted my HD20, copied the System 4.3 file to my HFS 400k disk, then scaled that down in Font/DA Mover. But even after deleting off all the fonts and DA's, the System file was still 100k too big! So when I used the System Tools Installer to put System 4.3 on my HD20, the Installer obviously put something else into the System, above and beyond fonts and DA's!

So back to copying off the System and Finder files from my Tools disk again. Sorry, Mac128, but it's just not possible to "install" off the Tools disk to a floppy. I'm not about to see if 300 swaps works!

So I copied the System file off my 4.2 Tools disk to my HFS 400k disk, slimmed it down in Font/DA Mover, then copied over the Finder. I then put them both in a System Folder, and I even saw the little "blessing" icon on the System Folder after I put the two files in it. I then rebooted, stupidly thinking I could boot off this HFS 400k disk. Nope. I get a 0F0064 Sad Mac when I try that. Of course! Without the HD20 INIT, HFS is unreadable!

So there you have it. System 4.2 and 4.3 will boot from an HD20, but not a floppy (on a Mac512 with 64k ROMs). The highest System file version I've had success with, booting off a 400k floppy, is System 4.1.

 

[ealex79]

The horrible disk swapping was a known bug, so don't hit them they did fix it

 

[Mac128]

I swapped between my two 800k disks 200 times. I kid you not. Two hundred times. (Yes, I counted.)

Wow. I am sorry to hear that. I cannot imagine why the "bug" would be invoked during an install, since as ealex79 pointed out that have been well repaired at least by System 3.0 if not earlier. Perhaps that was Apple's way of preventing the 512K from installing System 4.2 & 4.3? You have more dedication than I ... I probably wouldn't have made it through that first 30.

But you did successfully use the installer in the very same method to install on the HD-20 in the first place, correct? If so, why on Earth would it install on that external disk with no problems but not on the external 800K?

And so, I gave up on trying to "install" 4.2 (or 4.3) on an 800k disk. So I booted my HD20, copied the System 4.3 file to my HFS 400k disk, then scaled that down in Font/DA Mover. But even after deleting off all the fonts and DA's, the System file was still 100k too big! So when I used the System Tools Installer to put System 4.3 on my HD20, the Installer obviously put something else into the System, above and beyond fonts and DA's!

That doesn't make ANY sense. I'm using the same installer that you are and when using the Plus Minimal Installation option, the resulting System file can be Font/DA Mover-ed down to about 198K and the Finder is around 100K, more than enough room. If it's putting a lot more into the HD-20 System, something is wrong somewhere. Besides, we already discovered, both you and me using Mini vMac, that the System Tools System will not work (with error=12) as it likely contains patches that confuse the 64K ROM.

So back to copying off the System and Finder files from my Tools disk again. Sorry, Mac128, but it's just not possible to "install" off the Tools disk to a floppy. I'm not about to see if 300 swaps works!

Well you shouldn't try for 300! That was just brutal. However, based on the procedure I reported in my last post, I would do the installing on your SE/30 anyway. It also sounds like you tried to install on a pre-formatted HFS 800K disk. I would suggest installing it on an MFS 800K disk in your SE/30. If you were installing on an MFS 800K, perhaps that accounts for the massive disk swap, but shouldn't. Really odd, we are in uncharted waters here for sure.

I apologize for not jumping in on these tests yet, but my schedule has not permitted the time to pull out my Mac Plus and transfer the disk copies. Sadly I don't currently have the SE/30 networked setup you do. However, I will need to verify this last test to confirm the exact steps I am taking which seem to work perfectly in Mini vMac.

On thing does occur to me, though. Unless you had access to a 128K ROM Mac or an HD-20, you would not have been able to make a System 5 disk on your own 512K without numerous disk swaps, since you could only install to an 800K disk, whereas System 4.0 & 4.1 should fit onto a 400K disk, though I don't have installers for these to confirm, but the System Tools disk System files leave more than enough room.

 

[JDW]

But you did successfully use the installer in the very same method to install on the HD-20 in the first place, correct?

Yes. On my HFS-formatted HD-20. And during that install, I did see the read/write LEDs on my 800k drive and HD-20 flicker back and forth an unusually large number of times, but it wasn't anywhere near 200. I would say it was about 50 times or so.

I'm using the same installer that you are and when using the Plus Minimal Installation option, the resulting System file can be Font/DA Mover-ed down to about 198K and the Finder is around 100K, more than enough room. If it's putting a lot more into the HD-20 System, something is wrong somewhere.

Well, something must be wrong then. Because the smallest size I can get by deleting off almost all the fonts (except 12pt sizes for Chicago and Geneva, used by the System) and by deleting all but a single 2k DA, is about 260k. Adding that 100k Finder makes it 360k -- which will fit on a 400k MFS disk just fine. That's absolute minimum though. So if indeed you can shrink the System file down another 60k, something is indeed different in your method versus mine!

I will try to use my SE/30 to install 4.2 or 4.3 on an 800k MFS disk and report back.

 

[Patnukem]

my 512k seems to not like 4.2 on my hd20 (flickering welcome to Macintosh screen)

 

[JDW]

Okay, Mac128, here's the story.

I fired up System 6.0.8 on my SE/30 and mounted the System Tools 4.3 disk image on my Desktop with DiskDup+ 2.7. I then double-clicked the Installer and got an error saying the Finder on the Tools disk was too old for the computer to hand-off to the System Folder on the Tools disk. I then okay'd that dialog and the Installer loaded. I then inserted my MFS 800k floppy and choose the Mac Plus installation. It gave me an error saying that it needs to see a System file on the disk. So I quit the installer, and dragged the System file off the Tools disk onto my MFS 800k disk. I then launched the 4.3 Installer again, and this time was able to perform the installation. And I must say there was a lot of disk activity during the install too!

After the install, I popped out my 800k MFS disk and tried to boot my 512. Nope. I still get the same ID=12 bomb at boot time.

I then booted my 512 off a 400k disk, loaded Font/DA Mover, and tried to slim down the System file on the MFS 800k floppy so it would fit along side the 100k Finder on a 400k disk. But even after deleting all the fonts (except the ones required for System use) and after deleting all but the smallest DA, the System file was still 33k too big to fit on a 400k disk along side the 100k Finder! That's right. I could only slim down the System to about 325k! And since the System file was too big, I could not of course make a 400k boot floppy from it.

So how did I get the System file down to 260k as reported in my previous post above? As I stated in that post, in my previous tests, I had dragged the System file off the System Tools disk and slimmed that file down. When I do that, I can make it fit along side the Finder on a 400k disk. But for whatever reason, when I use the Installer on my HD20 or an 800k disk, the System file becomes bigger somehow and no manner of deleting fonts and DA's will slim it down under 300k.

So there you have it.

 

[Mac128]

I then inserted my MFS 800k floppy and choose the Mac Plus installation. It gave me an error saying that it needs to see a System file on the disk. So I quit the installer, and dragged the System file off the Tools disk onto my MFS 800k disk. I then launched the 4.3 Installer again, and this time was able to perform the installation.
That's right. I could only slim down the System to about 325k! And since the System file was too big, I could not of course make a 400k boot floppy from it.

I had forgotten about that aspect of it requiring a System. I used the System 4.1 Disk Tools System, since that one will boot a 512K. Then I used the installer on it and was able to reduce it down to 198K.

This is why I am always leery of involving the HD20. I wonder if the installation on its particular variety of HFS formatting is somehow changing the size of the file and/or interfering with the boot blocks when copied back to MFS.

ALSO: Was System 6 the first to prevent older Finder version handoffs? Or was that always the case?

 

[JDW]

I just came across this Apple Technical Article from 1989. It talks about HD20 incompatibilities with the 512ke. What caught my eye is that it says System 6.0.3 requires "XPRAM" (Extended PRAM) in the size of 256 bytes.

Anyway, my search is still on for that elusive INIT Utility (which may or may not be a proper name). Is there no one among us who has the original 1988/1989 System 6.0.3 installer floppies that shipped with the Macintosh SE/30? That's the only thing I can think of, since the elusive INIT Utility is no where to be found on Apple's downloadable edition.

 

[Paralel]

Hey, I think I found that HD20 INIT you were looking for. Here's the link to where I uploaded it:

http://sharebee.com/87c8aa3f

It's in BIN format. Hope this is what you were looking for.

 

[JDW]

Thank you for the file. I do not have time to confirm what it is right now, but the Date Modified indicates this is not the elusive INIT Utility. It is dated May 27, 1986 -- long before the SE/30.

Most likely, the file you found (apparently from this mac512 page?) is merely the INIT that allows the Mac 512k to use the HD20 and 800k disks. Unfortunately, that particular INIT is not the same as the "INIT Utility" being discussed here. I know because I have spent time in the past verifying such.