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Apple PHX 100

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Most of what I've put on mine is PPC stuff. By the time you get to bigger software or newer software, it's not exactly a spring chicken, either. It's absolutely most at home with 7.6.1 or 8.1 and with PowerPC native apps from the 1995-1998 era, and even then, lighter-weight ones. I meant to do some MacBench testing, but MacBench (4, at least) tests PPC if you're on a PPC Mac and I haven't found a way to force that. 7.6.1 or 8.1 PPC-ifies just enough of the OS to make a couple things better, relative to 7.5, but is still relatively lightweight. Speed Doubler 8 may also help.

My Mac Pro is in the spot the 6200 was in, now, but I'll swap things around again and see about how I can record usage of the machine. For worse or worse, this will involve either buying capture hardware, or pointing a camera at a monitor and hoping for the best.

It's probably worth noting, by and large with a similar load-out, the Power Macintosh 6100 isn't exactly a speed demon either. I don't know if that's a "dying hard disk" issue or if it's just, the early, low-speed PowerPC Macs are all slow. I suspect most people "forgive" the 6100 by either never using it, or upgrading it with a G3.

 

dtaylor

Member
Most of what I've put on mine is PPC stuff. By the time you get to bigger software or newer software, it's not exactly a spring chicken, either. It's absolutely most at home with 7.6.1 or 8.1 and with PowerPC native apps from the 1995-1998 era, and even then, lighter-weight ones. I meant to do some MacBench testing, but MacBench (4, at least) tests PPC if you're on a PPC Mac and I haven't found a way to force that. 7.6.1 or 8.1 PPC-ifies just enough of the OS to make a couple things better, relative to 7.5, but is still relatively lightweight. Speed Doubler 8 may also help.
I definitely judge these machines on how they performed at the time for their price. It's not really fair to judge them based on how they compared with newer machines at a time when Moore's Law was in full swing. I agree with you that they run best with 7.6.1. or 8.1.

It's probably worth noting, by and large with a similar load-out, the Power Macintosh 6100 isn't exactly a speed demon either. I don't know if that's a "dying hard disk" issue or if it's just, the early, low-speed PowerPC Macs are all slow. I suspect most people "forgive" the 6100 by either never using it, or upgrading it with a G3.
I wouldn't say the early Power Macs were all slow. But with the exception of later 604e machines, they were all slow compared to a much newer G3. I remember that G3 based Macs, including the iMac, felt incredibly fast at the time. I don't think OS X felt as "snappy" as OS9 on a G3 until the G5's arrived.

My 6300 consistently out performs my 6100/66 (with cache card and plenty of RAM) even when using 7.5 or 7.6 and early Mac networking software. Not by leaps and bounds. By a small but consistent amount.

My Mac Pro is in the spot the 6200 was in, now, but I'll swap things around again and see about how I can record usage of the machine. For worse or worse, this will involve either buying capture hardware, or pointing a camera at a monitor and hoping for the best.
Or just report what you find.

 

dtaylor

Member
Also! Welcome! I cite your articles very frequently!
Thank you! I actually joined a while back but only occasionally lurked. This thread caught my attention and wasn't so old that it felt weird to reply.

I wish I had time to play with classic Macs and make more blog posts. Some fond memories of that era.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Side-note about G3s: I have a Beige G3@300 and an 8600/300 and the G3 outperforms the 8600 at least 3x in integer and either matches or is 2x in floating point, I'll have to look.

It's utterly wild how much faster the G3 was than everything else.

Anyway, if you compare, like, 6200-based architectures (most of the PowerBooks up until the 2400/3400 then the G3) to the PCI machines, the PCI machines pull ahead massively.

But, again: in the US in 1995, $1900 got you a 6200 with software, games, an encyclopedia, a modem, a printer, a monitor, and a mouse. That's very clsoe to at or below entry level on every other PowerPC desktop until a couple years later.

 

trag

Well-known member
 In addition, no Apple support chips in existence at that time could operate beyond 50MHz, let alone up to 66MHz. If they did, don't you think the 9500 would operate at the same speed? Why would their flagship have slower parts than their cheapest machine?
Apple support chips may not have been spec'd to run faster than 50 MHz, however, they will operated well over 50 MHz.  I've run the PM9500 and the related Umax S900 at a 62MHz bus speed, using a PowerLogix PowerBoost Pro PPC604e based card.   The special thing about the PowerBoost Pro is that it adjusts the Clock ID pins as the bus speed is changed.  The Clock ID pins are CPU slot pins that tell the logic board chips what bus speed range to adjust to.    Most of the G3 upgrade cards didn't even use the Clock ID pins, which is why so many of htem would not operate at a bus speed above 45 MHz.  They were all letting the motherboard logic default to a  40 MHz setting.

 

trag

Well-known member
Side-note about G3s: I have a Beige G3@300 and an 8600/300 and the G3 outperforms the 8600 at least 3x in integer and either matches or is 2x in floating point, I'll have to look.

It's utterly wild how much faster the G3 was than everything else.


Part of that performance increase is probably caused by the switch from 60 or 70 ns FPM memory (14 - 17 MHz) to 66/83 MHz SDRAM.   The RAM access in the G3 based machines was at least 4 times faster.   Oh, and the faster backside L2 cache vs. slower In-line L2 helped a lot to.

Similar to the 6200, I've always been dismissive of the Mac IIvx because the of the 1/2 speed bus.   But thinking about it more, the RAM can't deliver data any faster than 16MHz any way and I don't think any of the peripherals run that fast.  So does it really matter that the CPU runs at 32MHz and the bus only runs at 16 MHz?    Perhaps, for all these years, the IIvx was actually a good machine....

According to LowEndMac the IIvx tests 30% slower than a IIci.   That doesn't seem to make sense in theory.  There must be more to it.   Perhaps the cache running at only 16MHz makes that much difference?

 
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dtaylor

Member
Similar to the 6200, I've always been dismissive of the Mac IIvx because the of the 1/2 speed bus.   But thinking about it more, the RAM can't deliver data any faster than 16MHz any way and I don't think any of the peripherals run that fast.  So does it really matter that the CPU runs at 32MHz and the bus only runs at 16 MHz?    Perhaps, for all these years, the IIvx was actually a good machine....

According to LowEndMac the IIvx tests 30% slower than a IIci.   That doesn't seem to make sense in theory.  There must be more to it.   Perhaps the cache running at only 16MHz makes that much difference?
The IIci and IIvx used Fast Page Mode (FPM) RAM. This means the initial time to access a random location was 80ns, but the subsequent 3 reads from the same row were much faster. Fast enough to reveal the difference in the bus speed.

There's also all the other traffic on the board to consider, and how that might have impacted performance given the 16 MHz vs 25 MHz difference. As you point out for a lot of peripherals it wouldn't make a difference, but I wonder what impact video had.

 

Cory5412

Daring Pioneer of the Future
Staff member
Generally, my Take about low end or otherwise "compromised" systems is that they got that way somehow, and the somehow is usually because the computer-buying public wanted a less expensive computer.

In the case of the 6200, a 6200 bundle (with a keyboard, mouse, software, monitor, encyclopedia, and usually a printer or modem) cost around a third of what a basic 9500 cost, before you added literally anything to the 9500. (Granted, that proportion goes down a lot if you compare the 6200, more realistically, to a 7200 or 7500.) A fully equipped 6200 cost just about the same as a bare 6100, and the two run PowerPC-native software at roughly the same speed.

The IIvx mostly gets compared to the Mac IIci. I don't have exact pricing and performance information, but I imagine that it pans out pretty similarly to the Performa 600, which I detailed below, and in a thread I linked.

I think the thing that a lot of people forget is that the Macintosh isn't just DTP and Photoshop and video production, but it's an entire platform representing a ton of different use cases. That the Performa 600  or 6200 isn't good at some of them shouldn't doom the machines to be forgotten or intentionally destroyed, it's just.... these were basic computers meant to be affordable introductions to the current hot topics in computing when they were new.

The Performa 600 in particular, based on the IIvx/vi, heavily emphasized the potential for convenient, inexpensive CD-ROM multimedia. The 6200 features that in full swing, and to my recollection, most 6200 configurations include a modem for access to the Internet or other online service.

Part of that performance increase is probably caused by the switch from 60 or 70 ns FPM memory (14 - 17 MHz) to 66/83 MHz SDRAM. 
I think platform improvements end up being very important in computer performance issues. It's easy to ignore the fact that everything about the Generation 3 PowerPC Mac platform is radically faster than the previous machines.

I also love the G3 macs because Apple dumped the prices on them several times, shifting the price of the basic desktop G3 all the way down to $1299 before the series was discontinued in favor of the blue-and-white models. That's a bit shy of a thousand dollars short of where that class of machine was two or three years earlier.

Similar to the 6200, I've always been dismissive of the Mac IIvx because the of the 1/2 speed bus. 


The IIvx (and IIvi and Performa 600) came up in a thread a few weeks ago. I reviewed the original MacWorld review of the P600 from 1992, when they compared it against the "similar looking on paper" Mac IIci, which, while older, has a much higher end overall design.

That discussion was here:  (the link should hopefully go directly to my post on March 9.)





Paraphrased: Slow isn't necessarily bad. Context is everything.

The Performa 600 (I haven't yet looked at a IIvx review) benches at about half the speed of the years-old and still much more expensive Mac IIci. Ultimately, the way to reconcile that is to remember that the Performa 600 (and ultimately the IIvx and IIvi) were never intended to be sold as a replacement to the IIci -- that was the Quadra 700. Instead, they were meant to be inexpensive and "good enough" for budget-constrained use cases. They were, helpfully, upgradeable in a couple ways. (NuBus slots, video RAM, CPU upgrade slot, the cache slot is said to be disabled or not present in the P600, at least by MacWorld in 1992.)

The Performa 600 was a lot less expensive than a IIci and was a "good enough" system if you wanted to have a computer but didn't need or want to pay for Quadra performance.

 

trag

Well-known member
The IIci and IIvx used Fast Page Mode (FPM) RAM. This means the initial time to access a random location was 80ns, but the subsequent 3 reads from the same row were much faster. Fast enough to reveal the difference in the bus speed.


That makes sense.   It would depend on the CPU actually reading four locations per transaction.  Was that "burst mode"?  Did the Mac actually make use of it?

 

trag

Well-known member
 the cache slot is said to be disabled or not present in the P600, at least by MacWorld in 1992.)

The Performa 600 was a lot less expensive than a IIci and was a "good enough" system if you wanted to have a computer but didn't need or want to pay for Quadra performance.


The IIvx had a 32KB cache soldered down on the motherboard.  The P600 (assuming these two boards I just got are P600 boards) have empty pads on the motherboard where the cache chips could go.   So it's probably possible to add the cache to a P600, just not easily done and not by most users.  There's also an FPU socket present (PLCC package, not PGA).

The article you referenced in the other thread had some interesting performance comparision tables.   It would be interesting to me if they had also included the IIci performance with its cache removed.  

 

dtaylor

Member
That makes sense.   It would depend on the CPU actually reading four locations per transaction.  Was that "burst mode"?  Did the Mac actually make use of it?
I don't know if the 68K instruction set had a special "burst mode" like the 603e. But that wouldn't be necessary. I don't believe the CPU has to do anything special. On a IIci or IIvx if it reads 4 bytes at address 0, then starts a read at address 4, the memory controller knows it has that row open and can respond faster.

Most memory transactions involve sequential bytes (at the sizes we're talking about) so FPM RAM makes a lot of sense and became a standard early on. Without two machines to test on I can't guarantee that's the speed difference, but it's a likely candidate.

 
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