4400/200 - dirty to clean

[CC_333]

Well, I don't know much here, but I'll try as I've had some experience with versions of your problem:

I can't boot from a floppy, specifically the 7.5.3 disk tools (either of them...) And it doesn't appear that it even reads the disk at all. I put it in, and not 2 seconds passes, with little drive noises, then it ejects with the [x] floppy icon.

Have you tried a known-good drive from another Mac? This could be because the floppy drive is defective.

I wonder, does the disk need the system enabler in the system folder to boot? I know this "clone" needs one for normal operation. Guess it wouldn't hurt to try, right?

Probably, but even without it, it'll still attempt to boot. Without the proper enabler, it will stop at a dialog that says the system is unsupported on your model, or words to that effect.

Also, can I format the CF card in OS X 10.4 disk utility? There's an option for Mac OS 9 drivers when you set the partition map to Apple Partition Map. But will that only work with later versions of OS 9? The 4400 doesn't appear to suppport beyond 9.0—no 9.x support.

Well, since it's a Power Mac, you can format the CF card as Mac OS Extended (if using SSW >= 8.1), and it'll work as long as it's formatted using Apple Partition Map and the Mac OS 9 drivers are installed. The drivers OS X 10.4 install should be compatible with any OS you may try (not sure about 7.5.x, but I should think that at least 8.x would work). Also, isn't this model supported by 9.1? 9.2.x requires a G3 or newer, but 9.1, as far as I know, can still boot on Macs as old as the 6100.

I can't format it on my iBook G3 (9.2.2) as through my card reader it's an "unsupported" volume. Could I format it on 10.4 and install an OS on yhe iBook? Can you install an old OS (e.g. 8.1) on my iBook running 9.2.2?? Even when the destination isn't the internal drive?

You should be able to format the card using 10.4 (as long as you use APM and install the OS 9 drivers, as mentioned above). Installing OS 8.1 on a machine (which never supported it) using a much newer version (9.2.2) is rather tricky, but you should be able to download a Restore CD from an original iMac, iBook G3, most PowerBook G3s and early G4s, and just copy the contents of the restore image over to the CF card. As long as the OS on those disks is newer than the minimum supported by the 4400 (and they are, I'm quite certain), they should work fine, and the system-specific bits shouldn't break anything (if anything, some of them, such as pre installed applications, could actually be useful).

I hope this helps!

c

 

[jessenator]

Have you tried a known-good drive from another Mac? This could be because the floppy drive is defective.

Can you swap auto-inject drives for manual? IIsi has a good drive.

copy the contents of the restore image over to the CF card

Well, before you responded I attempted this (kinda...). I put 2 partitions on the CF card, one about 1GB which I used DiskUtility's "restore" feature to put the 8.1 CD I have (from macintosh garden) to it. No dice. I wonder if I should just manually copy it or if that would make a difference.

 

[CC_333]

Can you swap auto-inject drives for manual? IIsi has a good drive.

I'm not sure.

Well, before you responded I attempted this (kinda...). I put 2 partitions on the CF card, one about 1GB which I used DiskUtility's "restore" feature to put the 8.1 CD I have (from macintosh garden) to it. No dice. I wonder if I should just manually copy it or if that would make a difference.

That won't work, unless you do it under OS 9.2.2. And even then, I'm not sure the System Folder on the CD won't boot properly if copied to a hard drive.

It'd probably be best to native-boot into OS 9.2.2 and copy the contents of the restore image under "Configurations" on the CD to your CF card, AFTER making sure it's been properly formatted with the OS 9 drivers and such.

OR, you could try running the installer. You've got little to lose by trying (the worst that'll happen is that it'll tell you your Mac is unsupported).

If you can find one, an OS 9.1 installer might work from within 9.2.2, though, and let you install to the CF card.

c

 

[jessenator]

I found a 9.1 installer, but it was from an iBook g3. No dice :/ I mean, it installed on the cf card, which was something, but it won't boot.

Guess I'll just have to be patient and wait for that CD-ROM....

Also I inspected the floppy and the carriage motor is having trouble moving the heads. I tried cleaning it as best I could, but it rejects the PPC disk tools floppy. Strangely, it took the 68k one and I got a happy Mac boot icon more a few seconds before ejecting.

I also tried the floppy from the IIsi and had flashbacks to having tried this as a kid. The drive just constantly ejects, or rather, cycles the eject motor. So that's a no-go.

$25+shipping for a replacement... I'll see.

 

[jessenator]

I guess this solves the auto-inject floppy incompatibility: https://siber-sonic.com/mac/superfloppy.html
Seems the switch to PCI included some other floppy controller tweaks that does exactly what I was experiencing.

But I've got 4 makes/models to pull a replacement from. 5 if you include the model that's actually in my 4400, another variant of the mitsubishi MF355F drive.

 

[CC_333]

I found a 9.1 installer, but it was from an iBook g3. No dice :/ I mean, it installed on the cf card, which was something, but it won't boot.

Hmm, did you install the proper OS 9 drivers to the CF card? Does Drive Setup within OS 9.2.2 let you install them there? Did you make sure the System Folder was blessed properly?

I also tried the floppy from the IIsi and had flashbacks to having tried this as a kid. The drive just constantly ejects, or rather, cycles the eject motor. So that's a no-go.

I'm not sure if this works, but did you try disconnecting the ejector motor so it wouldn't run constantly?

I'm running out of ideas....

c

 

[Franklinstein]

Quick history:
All of the Mac's 3.5" floppy drives (400k SS, 800k DD, 1.4MB HD SuperDrive, including PowerBooks) were OE'd from Sony until 1993ish when the manual-inject drives were introduced. The manual-inject drives could be from any of three manufacturers: Sony, Mitsubishi, or Panasonic. Sony desktop drives occasionally show up in 68k models but I really haven't seen many after the early Power Macs, though they did start reappearing in PowerBooks in 1997ish. Mitsubishi was the largest supplier of the manual-inject units for both desktops and PowerBooks. Panasonic supplied desktop drives for a couple years before floppy drives were discontinued; they're most commonly found in 8600, 9600, and G3 models.

The floppy thing can be frustrating. It's best to keep like-for-like, but there's some interchangeability. Basically, pre-SuperDrive models can only use pre-SuperDrive auto-inject, though you may be able to use a SuperDrive in an 800k-equipped Mac but it will only read 800k disks. There are also caveats regarding floppy drive ribbon stripes that can be found if you're super into trying to swap drives around into various '80s Macs.

The incompatibility between later Power Macs and auto-inject floppy drives has to do with a signal that goes over pin 9 on the cable. If you cut pin 9, you can use an auto-inject floppy drive on a 5xxx/6xxx or PCI-based Power Mac. This is how people with Power Color Classics get the auto-inject floppy drive to work.

Otherwise, rule of thumb is that a 68040-based Mac and x100-series Power Mac can use whichever SuperDrive, but others may only work with one type or the other unless you want to mod the cable.

I have not tested a manual inject floppy to see if it still works with a modified cable on a later Power Mac.

 

[jessenator]

I'm running out of ideas....

No worries! Thanks for the help and input. Because the drive I have appears hosed, I also bought a compatible replacement floppy last night.

I formatted another card under 10.4, including drivers, but since drive setup under os 9 wouldn't allow me to touch the CF card, I'm not sure anything of the sort of necessary disk changes happened.

I think I'm going to have to rely on the replacement drives working when they get here.

Ugh patience

    3 hours ago, Franklinstein said:

    The incompatibility between later Power Macs and auto-inject floppy drives has to do with a signal that goes over pin 9 on the cable. If you cut pin 9, you can use an auto-inject floppy drive on a 5xxx/6xxx or PCI-based Power Mac. This is how people with Power Color Classics get the auto-inject floppy drive to work.

Good to know though.

 

[jessenator]

I went ahead and purchased a replacement floppy this weekend. It was a decent price and I'd like to have a fully-working machine. Seller had a large volume of stuff, but still responded and it shipped out Monday; nice turnaround.

The CD-ROM I bought Friday, but still hasn't been shipped. This seller seems to take their time based off feedback.

 

[jessenator]

CD-ROM just shipped 

is the seller on here? I mean you no ill will, fyi.

 

[CC_333]

It wasn't me!

I look forward to hearing how it goes.

c

 

[Jon183]

Mine was working but had some odd behavior, decided to recap it, when the caps were getting pulled out, a lot of leakage poured all over the riser card, also some cap goo related corrosion near the PSU connector.

 

[jessenator]

Mine was working but had some odd behavior, decided to recap it, when the caps were getting pulled out, a lot of leakage poured all over the riser card, also some cap goo related corrosion near the PSU connector. 

Worked okay after you cleaned it up?

CC_333: haha well good. I'm trying to be better with my complaining on and offline.

I'm actually trying to bridge stuff with another tactic: using one of my spare SCSI drives with system folder contents from the 4400 restore disc. Fingers crossed, even though I've got hard and fast solutions on the way.

 

[jessenator]

Ok, so (for the 4th or 5th time) I'm a dingus.

I was concerned that DriveSetup was not seeing my CF card (within the external drive booting off the 7.5.3 minimal system folder from the 4400 restore CD) and then I remembered there were jumper settings on the adapter... the card is labeled with "defaults" but after some reading, they were not set on their defaults. After switching the jumper so the drive was now master and BAM:

Apparently that install from my iBook CD worked...

I think I'm going to try a couple options- the original OS, 7.5.3, possibly 7.6, most likely 8.1 or 8.5, but 9.1 is pretty laggy, but then again, I'm comparing that experience with my iBook G3 500MHz -  granted, 9.1 would let me keep my unpartitioned 32GB CF card, but I want a good experience.

 

[Jon183]

Worked okay after you cleaned it up?

CC_333: haha well good. I'm trying to be better with my complaining on and offline.

I'm actually trying to bridge stuff with another tactic: using one of my spare SCSI drives with system folder contents from the 4400 restore disc. Fingers crossed, even though I've got hard and fast solutions on the way.

It appears to but I haven't checked its stability by leaving it on for a long period of time.

 

[jessenator]

Got my floppy drive yesterday and gave it a workout. Turns out the old floppy drive ruined one of my diskettes it was so badly malfunctioning.

It's a Sony from a later Power Mac vs the original Mitsubishi, and it's much quieter, so that's nice. Since the Sony came on a plastic drive tray, I had to make a contact shield for the controller board. I opted for some leftover water pump gasket material I had sitting around, and that made it even quieter  Made sure to cut out a section for the spindle also. Hopefully the CD-ROM will arrive soon.

Also, for kicks I ran MacBench 3 & 4. I haven't yet installed graphic converter or other graphics software yet, so I snapped a phone pic of the basic v.4 results. I should redo the WHOLE test, but it was getting on to midnight before v.3 test completed and I wanted sleep. There's give and take obviously, but it's nice not having a spinner to slow things up (and make noise). I should also add in the PM 7300 since it's a fairer contemporary to the 4400 than the 7600.

I'm also thinking about a quieter cooling solution. That passive heatsink on the 603e was barely even warm, so I'm wondering if I can resist down the voltage to the case fan so it's not blowing at 100% RPM. It's nice having PWM fans and temp sensors on modern builds…

Also added a passive heatsink to the main IC of my Rage128 GL because I could  }  It's right in the path of the fan airflow now, so I shouldn't have any heat issues, even after an RPM choke.

 

[jessenator]

Finishing up the "cleaning" part now with a little retrobrite. I know I've said I won't do it, but I will on this machine as it's not a classic Mac. I've also contemplated making a custom front panel just for kicks.

I will say, this method gives you a lot of control over the exposure. I.e. the blacklight is slow as cold molasses in January. 
a) you have to have the light CLOSE to the piece you're brightening. I had it about 2-3 feet above and it hardly did anything.

b) you don't have to encase it in plastic-- I live in a dry place, but doing it indoors with a blacklight ensures your developer doesn't evaporate too quickly. 

c) check every hour vs half hour if you're close to the light source. What I've done out of more "due diligence" than anything is just retouched the surface with a brush to keep the developer as even as possible.

right now I'm hitting the top, as the angle I had it set to previously didn't hit the that portion. in all honesty, it's doing a good job with no streaking.

 

[jessenator]

drying, but still pretty pleased with the outcome  (comparing against the name badge as my WB on the phone is all over the place)

only real before shot I have

unless you count the ebay listing

 

[PB145B]

Very nice work! Looks like a great little machine!

I’d like to have a Power Macintosh from that era someday. 

 

[Charadis]

Good idea on the blacklight. I’ve always felt something was not right leaving plastics out under the sun. I like that this is a more controlled method