System 7 (and OS 8) natively boots on the Mac mini G4!

[gsteemso]

Wasn't the P in 7.1.2p short for “Performa”? I was under the impression that the only difference was the bundled applications. (7.1 Pro was 7.1.1, IIRC, so must have been unrelated to the PPC transition.) I may have that confused with later releases, I suppose, but I know there were _some_ where the P meant Performa and I thought 7.1.2 was one of them.

 

[volvo242gt]

Yup, the 7.1.2P version was for the Performa 63x series, the LC 630, and the Q630. The regular 7.1.2 version is the one for the 6100/60, 7100/66, and 8100/80 machines.

 

[Paralel]

Wasn't the P in 7.1.2p short for “Performa”? I was under the impression that the only difference was the bundled applications. (7.1 Pro was 7.1.1, IIRC, so must have been unrelated to the PPC transition.) I may have that confused with later releases, I suppose, but I know there were _some_ where the P meant Performa and I thought 7.1.2 was one of them.

Yep. 7.1.2p was the only 7.1.2 version for 68k systems. It can update any existing 68k installation to 7.1.2, with Finder 7.1.4, which is essentially identical to the 7.1.2 PPC Finder (except for literally 2 bytes) and is the same as the 7.5 finder except for the changes that were made to it in August 1994 before the release of 7.5 to the public.

 

[gsteemso]

...Huh. You learn something new every day. Were there any actual hardware differences (as opposed to mere SIMM or hard drive configuration) amongst all those 630s?

 

[Paralel]

Double Post

 

[Phipli]

Yup, the 7.1.2P version was for the Performa 63x series, the LC 630, and the Q630. The regular 7.1.2 version is the one for the 6100/60, 7100/66, and 8100/80 machines.

The non "p" version was also available for 68k. If you launch the 7.1.2 installer on a 68k Mac running 7.1, and scroll all the way to the bottom, there is an "update any machine" option.

 

[Phipli]

Yep. 7.1.2p was the only 7.1.2 version for 68k systems.

Based on personal experience, this isn't true - I suggest trying updating with the "PPC" installer as described above.

 

[Paralel]

The non "p" version was also available for 68k. If you launch the 7.1.2 installer on a 68k Mac running 7.1, and scroll all the way to the bottom, there is an "update any machine" option.

What's interesting about the PPC System file in 7.1.2 is that it says it is 7.1 and the creation date is 1992, where as the System file for 7.1.2p has a creation date of 1994. The Finder 7.1.4 is the same between them, but for some reason the PPC System file is based on the original 7.1 System file from 1992.

Based on personal experience, this isn't true - I suggest trying updating with the "PPC" installer as described above.

I will indeed have to give this a try, but if I am right, you will end up with a System file that is version 7.1, not 7.1.2

 

[Paralel]

Based on personal experience, this isn't true - I suggest trying updating with the "PPC" installer as described above.

I just tried it. I started with a 68k install of 7.1, did the upgrade exactly as you suggested, and I ended up with Finder 7.1.4, but the System remained 7.1. Under "Get Info" it will say its name is "System Software 7.1.2" but under Version it will say 7.1 and have a creation date of 1992.

7.1.2p's System file under "Get Info" will say its name is "System Software 7.1.2p" and under Version it will say 7.1.2 with a creation date of January 24, 1994.

 

[Phipli]

I just tried it. I started with a 68k install of 7.1, did the upgrade exactly as you suggested, and I ended up with Finder 7.1.4, but the System remained 7.1. Under "Get Info" it will say its name is "System Software 7.1.2" but under Version it will say 7.1 and have a creation date of 1992.

7.1.2p's System file under "Get Info" will say its name is "System Software 7.1.2p" and under Version it will say 7.1.2 with a creation date of January 24, 1994.

Yes, but that is what System 7.1.2 is. Apple didn't always align the named version with the component versions.

 

[Paralel]

Yes, but that is what System 7.1.2 is. Apple didn't always align the named version with the component versions.

So, you're saying that Apple would leave the version saying 7.1 when doing the update with the PPC installer for 7.1.2, but would update the version to actually say 7.1.2 for the 7.1.2p installer, and your assertion is that they are both 7.1.2? That makes absolutely no sense.

The major difference between the two installers is that the PPC installer has an option for "Update System Software For Any Macintosh"

The 7.1.2p installer has the same installation options BUT it also has an additional installation option, "Complete System File" with a description that says "This package contains a Full System file"

In additional to the version difference, there is a significant difference in the System file size. The PPC upgraded version that has a System file that says it is version 7.1 sees an increase in size of about 3K. The 6.1.2p upgraded System file that is version 7.1.2 increases in size by about 100k. This is a fairly significant difference since an original version 7.1 System file to start with is approximately only 1 meg. The changes made by the two installers couldn't possibly be equivalent.

Also, there is a difference in the control panel versions installed. The control panel versions of Memory and Sound installed by the PPC upgrade, for example, are both one revision lower than the ones installed by the 7.1.2p upgrade. As such, even if it updates the System file while leaving it saying version 7.1, you end up with older system components as well, so the PPC upgrade pathway just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Phipli]

So, you're saying that Apple would leave the version saying 7.1 when doing the update with the PPC installer for 7.1.2, but would update the version to actually say 7.1.2 for the 7.1.2p installer, and your assertion is that they are both 7.1.2? That makes absolutely no sense.

Yes? When did these machines make sense, they're full of inconsistencies.

System Files vary depending on your install anyway. The PPC one will have some PPC code, and try installing a full 7.5.3 and a minimum 7.5.3 installation and compare the two System files you get.

But I'm not really interested - I was just making you aware that you could run the 7.1.2 updater on a standard 68k 7.1 install, I wasn't looking to discuss the specifics of Apple version control.

 

[Snial]

<snip> But I'm not really interested - I was just making you aware that you could run the 7.1.2 updater on a standard 68k 7.1 install<snip>

Hmmm. This has just set me thinking. My original Performa 400 came with 7.1p. Are we saying it was actually 7.1.2p, but About This Macintosh.. just displayed "7.1P"?

I wasn't looking to discuss the specifics of Apple version control.

I've lost count of the number of companies I've worked at which screwed up version control for embedded products, leading to a lack of version numbers and consequently real maintenance issues that cost the company money. For example, using 2 bytes for version numbers, and then crippling them further by encoding them in ASCII! ("99 versions should be enough for anyone"); finding they were already up to 9.8 by the time I arrived and still absolutely refusing to give themselves 5-digits of breathing space by switching over to a literal integer encoding!!! ("9.8" encoded as { 0x49, 0x48} which in big-endian decimal (not BCD) is: 18760. So all you need to do is defined every version number above 18760 as the (value-18760)/10000+9.9. This means 65535=>14.5.7b75. We can allocate up to 5 more major versions, with a 1 digit feature version, 1 digit bug-fix and 2 digit build numbers. Then dev builds and candidate builds won't get confused and if there's a feature update every 6 months, we have 50 more years of version numbers left.

 

[volvo242gt]

^No, 7.1.2 (either the P or non-P version) hadn't been introduced yet.

 

[Paralel]

Hmmm. This has just set me thinking. My original Performa 400 came with 7.1p. Are we saying it was actually 7.1.2p, but About This Macintosh.. just displayed "7.1P"?

I've lost count of the number of companies I've worked at which screwed up version control for embedded products, leading to a lack of version numbers and consequently real maintenance issues that cost the company money. For example, using 2 bytes for version numbers, and then crippling them further by encoding them in ASCII! ("99 versions should be enough for anyone"); finding they were already up to 9.8 by the time I arrived and still absolutely refusing to give themselves 5-digits of breathing space by switching over to a literal integer encoding!!! ("9.8" encoded as { 0x49, 0x48} which in big-endian decimal (not BCD) is: 18760. So all you need to do is defined every version number above 18760 as the (value-18760)/10000+9.9. This means 65535=>14.5.7b75. We can allocate up to 5 more major versions, with a 1 digit feature version, 1 digit bug-fix and 2 digit build numbers. Then dev builds and candidate builds won't get confused and if there's a feature update every 6 months, we have 50 more years of version numbers left.

Nah, there was a Performa specific series of System 7.1 (7.1P - 7.1P6) which all predate 7.1.2P. Apple really didn't care about trying not to confuse people in this time period.

You can generally tell the versions apart by their creation dates. Anything with a creation date of 1992 is part of the 7.1 family. Anything with a creation date of 1993 is part of the very small 7.1.1 family. Anything with a creation date of 1994 is part of the very small 7.1.2 family.

 

[mikes-macs]

This is remarkable, if not down right ingenious. I'll give this a try when I get some time. I only have a 1 GB RAM stick to use in my G4 Mac Mini. Will it accept that much RAM? I'm saving this forum page in case the place goes down again.

 

[Snial]

<snip> 2 bytes for version numbers, and then crippling them further by encoding them in ASCII! ("99 versions should be enough for anyone"); finding they were already up to 9.8 <snip> ("9.8" encoded as { 0x49, 0x48} <snip> This means 65535=>14.5.7b75 <snip>

Except it'd be {0x39, 0x38} =14,648. So, 65535 => (65535-14648)/10000+9.8=14.8.8b9. Whoops, I had managed to make two mistakes! Now you only get 1 build digit, but you gain 3 feature and 1 bug-fix versions.