SuperDuoHack Brainstorming Session =8-D

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

the entire magnesium frame of the Duo is the heatsink, the little projection is a heatpipe to the chassis.

Do you actually mean a heatpipe as defined here, or just a chunk of metal?

My Bad, I just meant that it's an integral part of the magnesium chassis and transfers heat to the rest of the chassis, pretty slick way to do it actually, just not conducive to moving the CPU.

Haven't had one open for a while either, so I'm going on memory too, therefore I might also be mistaken . . . =8-\

 

[Bunsen]

Have a read of that article. Heatpipes are kinda awesome. They allow you to have your CPU in one spot, and your main heatsink in another.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I'll check it out. Meanwhile, I've got a Professional Linux Programmer looking into other boards for the DuoNetBookNemisisHack.™ He was impressed with the Duo's hack potential and its incredible factor. He said it ought to be a piece of cake and has already identified several very promising ProcCards!

I doubt he'll have much time to devote to the project, but we've now got one wild code jockey, one certifiable hardware hacker/KBD Butcher/Rudimentary PCB Designer-Prototyper in on the project so far!

I ran into my brother's friend, a professional Multilayer PCB Designer, who may troubleshoot that end of things . . .

. . . HOPEFULLY . . . : . . . and my M. E. middle lil' bro, who does high end Blade Server Packaging for a living, knows rapid prototyping inside-n-out. If I twist his arm just a lil' he might be of great assistance to the project . . . or not! :-/

. . . but he'll usually give me an informed opinion of my plans, even though my hacking bores him to tears. :lol:

If I can get a few Open Source Maniacs involved on the Software end of things, this might actually become a credible project! [:O] ]'>

Does ubuntuDuoHack™ have a better ring to it? :?:

 

[Bunsen]

DuoBuntu?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

DuoBuntu?

:lol:

 

[Franklinstein]

You guys are really going to town on this project. It seems that you've rapidly progressed from relatively simple upgrades to a completely different machine encased within a Duo shell. Either way, the outcome is relevant to my interests.

... but reworking a QFP on a PCB is very likely beyond my present skill set.

Reworking SMT devices is remarkably easier than doing so with BGAs, though the principles are similar: the devices are installed and removed with heated air.

If you've got access to proper equipment (like a reflow station), it's almost trivial to replace an SMT device such as the QFP processor on those boards. Plus, if there's a mistake, it's super-easy to touch up the affected areas, unlike a BGA, which would require a complete do-over to correct even the smallest of errors.

If you're strictly an at-home hobbyist, then the same general end can be achieved with a good heat gun. Simply apply the heat gun to the desired area, slowly lowering it until the solder melts, then pull off the device. Then, slowly remove the heat gun before installing the new device and repeating the process, making sure that the device doesn't slip from its pads or anything, and you're pretty much done.

*Ideally, you'd clean the pads before placing the new device, but then you'd have to go and solder every pad by hand, since you likely won't have new solder paste or the original application tools. This way, you just need to go in and touch up any imperfections when you're done. Or, clean the pads and hand-solder. Whichever.

Obviously, there's more to proper heat gun hackery than what I've included here, but these are the basics. For more in-depth instruction on heat-gunning stuff, there are plenty of resources on the intarwebz, particularly pages dealing with iBook GPU reflowing.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

You guys are really going to town on this project. It seems that you've rapidly progressed from relatively simple upgrades . . .

Never intended it to be even "relatively simple!" [] ]'>

I haven't mentioned it in this thread yet, but the original SuperDuoHack™ spec of yore included adding the 1400's, PBX ASIC equipped, PC Card Daughtercard where the Duo's HDD is supposed to be, moving mass storage to a PC Card HDD with one particular WiFi Card in the upper slot. I've got pics of that prototype/form factor test in my iDisk backup . . .

. . . I'll dig 'em out to post later. [] ]'>

At that time I wanted to do a new RAM upgrade card replacement (extending over-top the on-board RAM ICs/addressing lines) w/LOTS of memory! This included using a "Powered" RAM-Disk and a Virtual Memory Workaround for the Duo's ROM induced RAM ceiling. That's the way they got around the 4 MB limit on compact Mac accelerators waaaay back in the day!

Current notions have changed somewhat . . . : . . . considering the proliferation of Multi-GigaBit solid state chiplets etc. The post-processin' wooden cog section betwixt my ears is throwin' off smoke while evaluating delicious new options!

. . . to a completely different machine encased within a Duo shell. Either way, the outcome is relevant to my interests.

... but reworking a QFP on a PCB is very likely beyond my present skill set.

Reworking SMT devices is remarkably easier than doing so with BGAs, though the principles are similar: the devices are installed and removed with heated air.

Yep, I know how it's supposed to be done . . . :-/

If you're strictly an at-home hobbyist, then the same general end can be achieved with a good heat gun.

Damn betcha, this at-home hobbyist has used a heat gun to denude PCBs of their "parts" to trace PCB connections and then apply pneumatic grindage to expose trace "layers" semi-randomly for later reassembly as Adobe Illustrator "layers"

to come up with a conceptual model (and the physical layout) of the PCB in question.

I've even noodled out the necessary metal "jigs" for liftin'-n-replacin' QFP components using my "lost" heat gun, but as I said, I've sort of moved on to an attempt to outstrip HP_Mini's ubuntu goodness within the plastics of my beloved Duos.

I'll keep both sub-threads going here, because cross-pollination of hackin' notions has always been helpful. :rambo:

 

[Bunsen]

a new RAM upgrade card replacement (extending over-top the on-board RAM ICs/addressing lines) w/LOTS of memory! This included using a "Powered" RAM-Disk and a Virtual Memory Workaround for the Duo's ROM induced RAM ceiling.

OK, I'm not entirely sure what you said just there, but consider this: homebrew SCSI RAM disk

A little large to fit in a Duo, but a starting point for something smaller, perhaps?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

homebrew SCSI RAM disk
A little large to fit in a Duo, but a starting point for something smaller, perhaps?

No need for SCSI, I'm talking about hijacking the ENTIRE fast side of the CPU/PBX I/O bus pair! }

Besides, the PowerDuo has IDE, enabling a much more simple hack.

AFAIK, a modern MultiGig Chiplet would outperform anything we had available back in the day. The added bonus to the Chiplet/RAM/poweredRAMdisk/VMhack™ would be freeing up the lower PC Card Slot! Not to mention a significant reduction power requirements and Solid State Goodness! [] ]'>

Take a look at the build dates on the software for that adapter, it's 4-5 years out of date, technologically speaking. However, it'd be a wicked addendum to a SCSI limited NuBus equipped 68k . . .

. . . like the wicked fast IIfx! [] ]'>

. . . it probably wouldn't slow an 840av down much either . . . :

_______________________________________________________________________________________

OOPS! Almost forgot! Did you notice the bit about being a universal interface (as was always the case for SCSI, BTW) with LVD capability? =8-b . . . . . . . . .

 

[Bunsen]

I'm talking about hijacking the ENTIRE fast side of the CPU/PBX I/O bus pair! }

Refresh my memory, if you will: what's on the fast side, and what's on the slow side?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

I'm talking about hijacking the ENTIRE fast side of the CPU/PBX I/O bus pair! }

Refresh my memory, if you will: what's on the fast side, and what's on the slow side?

1) The fast side would only be RAM & Cache (if any) connected directly to the CPU Bus.

2) All other I/O on the NuBus PBs was stepped down to a slower '030 Bus, Bridged by the PBX ASIC, IIRC.

3) If you grab EVERY available Address line from the RAM expansion slot and the lines to the MoBo RAM (and any others either readily available or used for HDD memory space or whatever) and make a modern Micro SD chiplet LOOK like it's the Duo's RAM, HDD etc. . . .

. . . you can play ALL KINDS of cute lil' tricks on the unsuspecting 603e or G-3 CPU. }

 

[MacJunky]

If you do that to yours then I will have to get a Duo for myself.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

If you do that to yours then I will have to get a Duo for myself.

Nab a few anyway, they're a lot of fun to play around with and they don't take up much space, or $ for that matter!

As I said before, I've moved on to hacking modern open-source software, components/appropriate SBC (or two) into the Plastic enclosure of my favorite computer of all time. I'm keeping both hack notions alive in this thread, fishin' for Duo converts and any info/ideas/help available for either project.

BTW, the FastBusHijackHack™ would be a perfect fit for a 1400/G-3!

I guess this thread may be morphing into a three pronged offensive! :

 

[Bunsen]

3) If you grab EVERY available Address line / and make a modern Micro SD chiplet LOOK like it's the Duo's RAM, HDD etc

¡Ay carumba! My brain hurts just contemplating that. And it does make one wonder, if you have to go all that effort, why bother with the 603e/G3 at all? Which is obviously the conclusion you reached, too

On the other hand, the uh ... relatively simple G3 transplant (leaving the rest of the Duo as is) still seems like it's worth pursuing, and applicable to the 1400 and 5300 as well.

Perhaps a useful way to experiment with the transplant would be to practise on the replaceable 603e CPU modules from the 1400? Then at least if it stuffs up, you're not losing an entire Powerbook - just try again with another module The cacheless 117MHz modules are essentially disposable - heck, I'll donate one or two myself. Once working, you can try the same method on a 5300, before moving on to the 2300.

 

[Gorgonops]

3) If you grab EVERY available Address line from the RAM expansion slot and the lines to the MoBo RAM (and any others either readily available or used for HDD memory space or whatever) and make a modern Micro SD chiplet LOOK like it's the Duo's RAM, HDD etc. . . .

Your enthusiasm is admirable, but you are aware of the fact that the flash (NAND) in an SD card absolutely cannot substitute for RAM memory, right?

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Exactly, which is why . . .

it needs to be set up to LOOK like it's the Duo's RAM, HDD etc. . .

When executing software from NAND memories, virtual memory strategies are often used . . .

Using some modern RAM on the same card with battery backup as a RAM Disk, would help to alleviate chiplet wear-n-tear, make bootup supersonic, and using some of it as L? Cache probably wouldn't hurt system performance much either. [] ]'>

As I said, this is just brainstorming in this thread, especially as regards the Mac OS DuoMoBoHack approach. I'm very committed to working out the "carrier board/SBC(s) approach" to an ubuntuCentricDuoHack™

 

[Gorgonops]

Okay... I don't see this working without revising the system's ROMs so they understand the concept of cold-booting from a RAM disk. It's true that the classic OS allows for RAM disks that persist through a warm boot, but so far as I know the only machine which supported both booting from a RamDisk and had a battery-backed-up method of keeping it persistent was the PB100.

As for backing the RAM disk (and active RAM?) onto an SD card, NAND flash isn't that fast. Doing a complete load/store of a good-size chunk of RAM might not be any faster then just booting the machine off an OS image stored on a Compactflash adapter. And of course you'll need a microcontroller to handle the store-restore process... and if the plan is to "freeze" the computer so it can perform an instant-on resume you're back to needing something running on the main CPU to cleanly save/restore register states. It's an interesting brainstorm but implementation would be way, way out there in nontrivial-ville.

Anyway, it's fun to dream. ;^) It really does seem, though, that by far the easiest way to make a Duo do what you seem to want it to do would be to just open the case, loosen the screws to all the innards, shake them out into the nearest garbage can, and replace them with the guts of a $300 Netbook. Even if you factor in emulation overhead running Sheepshaver it'll probably outrun a real Duo and it'll have direct access to oodles of RAM, USB ports, Wifi...

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Okay... I don't see this working without revising the system's ROMs so they understand the concept of cold-booting from a RAM disk. It's true that the classic OS allows for RAM disks that persist through a warm boot . . .

I'm relying upon very dim memories of running RAMdisk+ something like . . .

. . . 20 years ago! :

Weren't system ”extensions” basically ROM revisions? :?:

. . . but so far as I know the only machine which supported both booting from a RamDisk and had a battery-backed-up method of keeping it persistent was the PB100.

Yep! My first PowerBook: BabyPB, Sony's phenomenal downsized version of the MacLuggable, would be the inspiration for this particular feature. Considering everything else Apple “appropriated” from Sony's masterpiece of industrial design, you would think they'd have included this feature on their “100 series” clunky upsized imitations of the PB100!

As for backing the RAM disk (and active RAM?) onto an SD card, NAND flash isn't that fast. Doing a complete load/store of a good-size chunk of RAM might not be any faster then just booting the machine off an OS image stored on a Compactflash adapter.

There are several kinds of solid state memory inside or attached to HP_Mini, if the chiplets aren't the best choice, one of the others must be! Remember, we're just brainstormin' ATM!

And of course you'll need a microcontroller to handle the store-restore process... and if the plan is to "freeze" the computer so it can perform an instant-on resume you're back to needing something running on the main CPU to cleanly save/restore register states. It's an interesting brainstorm but implementation would be way, way out there in nontrivial-ville.

Check out the earlier posts for the I/O subsystem card I found for the “open source” ubuntuCentricDuoHack™ for that “required microcontroller,” for this function, among other things! [] ]'>

Anyway, it's fun to dream. ;^) It really does seem, though, that by far the easiest way to make a Duo do what you seem to want it to do would be to just open the case, loosen the screws to all the innards, shake them out into the nearest garbage can, and replace them with the guts of a $300 Netbook.

Might be easiest, but the Duo's got beaucoup cubic inside to do a hack that'll leapfrog current Atom ChipSet NetBooks like HP_Mini. The KBD/Palmrest/Lid are ALL larger, supporting more pixels, a “spherically correct” pointing device, (or a TorquemadaPad for those into such masochis . . . ) room for more batteries, and don't forget that wonderful signal rich docking connector for new Micro & MiniDock expansion possibilities and the VCR-like goodness of the DuoDocks. New logic/carrier boards utilizing the Neolithic Duo Docking Hardware/Connector for new interfaces will open wonderful new possibilities for Hacking!

All right G, you're very competent technically, you're humoring me/being helpful, and you use “then” for “than,” just like someone else I knew, back in the day. The only person I've ever “known” in the NetVerse to use that: ;^) emoticon, in the middle of a post, was my 'fritter-only” buddy: eudi . . . fess up dude!

Why the switch from a pterosaur to a therapsid for your username/avatar?

mode>

 

[Gorgonops]

Weren't system ”extensions” basically ROM revisions? :?:

You've got to be able to boot before you can load an extension. Chicken and the egg problem here. ;^)

Might be easiest, but the Duo's got beaucoup cubic inside to do a hack that'll leapfrog current Atom ChipSet NetBooks like HP_Mini. The KBD/Palmrest/Lid are ALL larger, supporting more pixels, a “spherically correct” pointing device, (or a TorquemadaPad for those into such masochis . . . ) room for more batteries, and don't forget that wonderful signal rich docking connector for new Micro & MiniDock expansion possibilities and the VCR-like goodness of the DuoDocks. New logic/carrier boards utilizing the Neolithic Duo Docking Hardware/Connector for new interfaces will open wonderful new possibilities for Hacking!

Uhm, use the innards from a *bigger* laptop instead? Or a Lenovo IdeaPad S10? That has an Expresscard slot if USB 2.0 (which in terms of bandwidth crushes the Duo dock connector already) isn't a good enough expansion connector for you.

Beyond a certain point if you want to go faster you have to chuck out your old vehicle and start over. A one-cylinder curved-dash Oldsmobile from 1902 might (uncomfortably) handle having a Model T four-banger crammed into it, assuming you can find the space. But a bored-and-stroked 454 big block crate motor belongs somewhere else, period. Floor it in the Horseless Olds and you'll end up sitting in the middle of a twisted pile of splinters with a clutch disk stuck in your skull. On bus speed alone an Atom 270 is a big block next to the Duo's 68030-based go-cart architecture.

All right G, you're very competent technically, you're humoring me/being helpful, and you use “then” for “than,” just like someone else I knew, back in the day. The only person I've ever “known” in the NetVerse to use that: ;^) emoticon, in the middle of a post, was my 'fritter-only” buddy: eudi . . . fess up dude!

Why the switch from a pterosaur to a therapsid for your username/avatar?

mode>

Yeah, you got me. I never was any good with the Then-Than thing. I also used to get in serious trouble for "improving" the illustrations in my spelling workbooks. Oh, well.

As to the name change I tried signing up with my "proper" Internet nom-de-plume, but either this forum doesn't send signup confirmations to my free email provider of choice (and fails to warn you it won't), or said provider thinks email from this forum is junk mail. (I did some digging into the 68kmla's DNS records and I have reason to think it may be the latter.) So I was forced to choose an alternate, having locked out the other in my failed attempt.

Busted?

 

[Bunsen]

3) If you grab EVERY available Address line /snip/

Trash: All the lines you need are right there on the docking port connector, as far as I know. A partial pinout, and a note to that effect are about halfway down my linkdump/scratchpad/blog at Applefritter.

... giving the Duo Dock direct access to the microprocessor's 32-bit address bus, 32-bit data bus, and control signals

Full pinout

How about a board to mount a G3 upgrade in the empty bottom half of an UltraDock 16sce? Or in a fullscale Duo Dock? An L2 cache slot upgrade from a desktop 603e Mac might be a possible approach, and they go to 500MHz.

Alternatively, use the docking bar as your one stop shopping mounting point/dev port for fast-side hackfoolery - at least for prototyping.

Unfortunately the linked MLA discussion of ideas that sprang from that discovery was lost in the Great Crash. I do remember a line about "a Duo that's a 100MHz 603e on the road, and a 500MHz G3 when docked" }