My Mad B&W G3 Setup!

[Snial]

Hi folks, I've recently acquired a beautiful B&W G3 from a friend when I was at the Everything Electric Show!

Naturally it's one with the dodgy IDE controller (I checked)! I tried replacing the 80pin cable with a standard 40 pin cable, but the only 3.5" IDE HD I had was a 40GB one that supports fast DMA so it's not reliable at all (though it appeared to be reliable enough to install Mac OS X Panther). I've ordered a Sil3112-based PCI SATA card so eventually it'll be, hopefully, usable.

In the meantime I had a really mad idea! Why not boot the B&W from Mac OS 9.1 on a CD!!!! And yes it can work in a manner of speaking..


So, this is a version of 9.1 I had installed on a bootable Flash drive which I worked out how to boot on an iMac G3/400 DV using open firmware. That was an enjoyable saga! This time I have a different adventure. The B&W is too old to boot from USB, but I had a Macintosh Garden generic install of 9.2.2 (and ROM 10.1 or something like that) on a CD-R. I found that I could boot from that on the G3, but it's an install CD with only a minimal 9.2.2 and I can't use it to install 9.2.2 on my Mac Mini G4, because it's running Leopard, which I think doesn't support even Classic mode properly (though I could be wrong here).

However, I can mount the CD-R; make a .dmg of it; then mount the 9.1 USB flash drive; trash the 9.2.2 install on the .dmg and copy the contents of the System Folder to the .dmg. Then it should be bootable, but booting 9.1! And why would I do that? Because I can persuade myself that my 9.1 (which was a 9.0 retail CD I bought, with 9.04 and 9.1 upgrades) is totally legit after I've wrestled with all the pointless moral ambiguity of installing a 25 year-old obsolete OS!

And yes it works. It does take.. 10s to start looking for a disk, another 14 seconds before it stops flashing the folder icon and sees the CD; then another 18s to get to the happy Mac and then another astounding 4:38 minutes to complete the boot with an oddly familiar Network error, error message. 5:21 minutes in total!

After all that it's stuck at 832x624 video and the monitor control panel won't run, so I can't use it to change the resolution. Fortunately, the control strip's monitor resolution thingy works so I can get to that.

I guess the next steps are to see what I can usefully install on the CD-RW (AppleWorks 5, will that run from CD?) and also store on the massive 1GB Flash disk! (which is usable on the B&W G3, but doesn't seem to be on the Mac Mini G4. Odd). I'm also going to risk a Zip disk at some point in the ZIP drive, once I've properly archived it.

Saturday Fun!

 

[volvo242gt]

Not bad. Keep your eyes peeled for a Revision 2 board. It'll work in the early case. That'll get rid of the IDE controller issue. The main hard drive in my G4 is the Maxtor 120GB that was in my B&S (Blue & Silver) G3. Worked fine in that computer. So, that might be a way to get a larger drive working on it.

 

[Snial]

Not bad. Keep your eyes peeled for a Revision 2 board. It'll work in the early case. That'll get rid of the IDE controller issue. The main hard drive in my G4 is the Maxtor 120GB that was in my B&S (Blue & Silver) G3. Worked fine in that computer. So, that might be a way to get a larger drive working on it.

Thanks! I ordered a Sil3112 based SATA PCI card, and the Sil3112 chipset is supposedly B&W compatible. Unfortunately I figure it doesn’t come with the right cables, so I’ll probably have to get some too.

Failing that I’ll buy an IDE PCI card.

 

[Durosity]

I can’t guarantee anything, but I think I have a spare rev 2 board. I’m currently in the process of finally getting my garage/workshop cleared out (I can now actually see the floor!!!) and I have a huge pile of motherboards I need to sort through. If you’re interested send me a PM in a week or so and I’ll let you know if I find it!

 

[croissantking]

I've got a spare Rev B ATA controller chip, in case you want it to convert your Rev A.

 

[cheesestraws]

I’m currently in the process of finally getting my garage/workshop cleared out (I can now actually see the floor!!!)

Woo, well done. That can feel very overwhelming.

 

[Durosity]

I've got a spare Rev B ATA controller chip, in case you want it to convert your Rev A.

Is it just as simple as swapping the chips? I always wondered if there was any other modifications required or updated roms.

Woo, well done. That can feel very overwhelming.

It’s been overwhelming for years.. but it’s been cathartic getting it all sorted out. I’m nowhere near done yet, but I’ve at least been able to get everything where it basically belongs. And also it’s given me a chance to start cataloging my collection.. it turns out I have 10 Mac Pluses, 7 SE/30s, 8 SEs, and 5 classics (all in various states of repair). Rather overkill…

 

[croissantking]

Is it just as simple as swapping the chips? I always wondered if there was any other modifications required or updated roms.

That’s something im not sure of ..

 

[Snial]

I can’t guarantee anything, but I think I have a spare rev 2 board. I’m currently in the process of finally getting my garage/workshop cleared out (I can now actually see the floor!!!) and I have a huge pile of motherboards I need to sort through. If you’re interested send me a PM in a week or so and I’ll let you know if I find it!

I've got a spare Rev B ATA controller chip, in case you want it to convert your Rev A.

All this is very generous, I feel really thankful! I deliberately asked for my friend's worst B&W G3 (he has a few) so that he could keep the better ones and very much anticipated getting the bad ATA controller. It runs at 350MHz, so it's not even the slowest B&W G3 there was. Theoretically it's within 1% of the speed of an iMac G3/400 thanks to its 1MB L2 cache. If it doesn't work out with the SATA (or possibly a PCI ATA controller), I would be very grateful for a replacement IC or Rev 2 board!

Meanwhile I've been having more fun with the B&W! I copied a bunch of Mac OS 9.1 applications: AppleWorks 5, iTunes, NisusWriter 6 (my paid for copy), BugDom (OEM), QuickTime player and some games like Delirium and Solarian II.

BugDom wouldn't run because it was supposed to run on the correct iMac; Delirium needed a 4-bit colour mode (which PPC doesn't support, does it?) Solarian II ran fine after I switched to 8-bit colour!

I found that AppleWorks 5 could run from CD, but couldn't save files as it didn't seem to think it was an option to save it on the 1GB Flash disk! I installed Nisus Writer 6 on the 1GB Flash disk (I used it for my MPhil thesis). I then archived my ZIP disk containing MP3s (and a few other things) and risked using it in the B&W G3s.

No click of death, so that's a win! I couldn't play MP3s via iTunes, because it seemed to need to create a Documents:iTunes folder on the boot drive (and it couldn't do that). And the QuickTime player wanted to upgrade itself, but somehow even when I copied the folder to the ZIP drive it thought the upgrade was on the 1G Flash drive which it insisted upon ejecting and then re-mounting; whereupon it hung.

All very much a revelation, the G3 is now vaguely usable. It's loud though! Not used to loud computers any more ;-) !

 

[LaPorta]

Do you have the SCSI card? Interesting, mine isn't loud.

 

[joevt]

Is it just as simple as swapping the chips? I always wondered if there was any other modifications required or updated roms.

I've only seen one ROM for the B&W G3. And there's a patched version for G4 upgrades.
I have a Rev 1 B&W G3 with G4 patches.

1999.0409  111f4  4e40465a.b9c7f354.db26f354  "ROM 3.1.1f4 B&W G3 0"
1999.0409  111f4  c1a05781.04f7f36d.a70af36d  "ROM 3.1.1f4 B&W G3"

# Between the original and patched B&W G3 ROM there's some minor differences.
# Start has one change and this additional piece of code:
#
# FFF03A1C: 7C3F 42A6                       mfpvr    r1              
# FFF03A20: 5421 843E                       srwi     r1,r1,16        
# FFF03A24: 7022 8000                       andi.    r2,r1,0x8000    
# FFF03A28: 4182 0028     FFF03A50          beq      $+40            
# FFF03A2C: 3840 0001                       li       r2,1            
# FFF03A30: 7C42 0830                       slw      r2,r2,r1        
# FFF03A34: 7041 0007                       andi.    r1,r2,7         
# FFF03A38: 4182 0018     FFF03A50          beq      $+24            
# FFF03A3C: 7C31 FAA6                       mfspr    r1,HID1         
# FFF03A40: 6021 0800                       ori      r1,r1,0x0800    
# FFF03A44: 7C31 FBA6                       mtspr    HID1,r1         
# FFF03A48: 4C00 012C                       isync                    
# FFF03A4C: 4800 0004     FFF03A50          b        $+4             
# FFF03A50: 3C40 C410                       lis      r2,0xC410       
# FFF03A54: 4BFF F734     FFF03188          b        $-2252          
#
# HwInit has three changes.
# Open Firmware is identical.

 

[Byrd]

I've had several Rev 1/A B&W G3s, and honestly never saw an issue with data corruption using different drives (stock and more later larger IDE models), the caveat was to not to run another slave drive with the boot device off the one channel. Which was fine as it comes with two connectors, or await a PCI card as substitute.

 

[joevt]

The 1.1.1f4 Power Mac G3 (Blue & White) Firmware Update 1.1 says it can update these versions:
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.0b4 BootROM built on 11/06/98 at 09:04:50
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.0f3 BootROM built on 12/08/98 at 17:37:15
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.0f5 BootROM built on 02/15/99 at 18:06:39
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.1d7 BootROM built on 02/19/99 at 18:51:52
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.1f1 BootROM built on 03/08/99 at 13:29:20

Since we have the full source code for the Firmware Update 1.1 Open Firmware script and code for the firmware parts, and code for many ROMs, we could do stuff like back port support for multi boot GUI, FireWire Target Disk Mode, FireWire and USB Boot, maybe telnet, etc.
https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?thr...-custom-startup-sound-rom-hack-success.25758/

BugDom wouldn't run because it was supposed to run on the correct iMac; Delirium needed a 4-bit colour mode (which PPC doesn't support, does it?) Solarian II ran fine after I switched to 8-bit colour!

For 4-bit color mode, you need a graphics card and driver that supports 4-bit color mode. The graphics controller of the Power Mac 6100 supports all color modes. The graphics controller used by Sheep Shaver supports all the color modes. I'm making a graphics controller for the DingusPPC emulator that supports all the color modes for all the supported PowerPC Macs. I don't know of any existing PCI cards that support all the color modes. I suppose one could setup a virtual graphics controller on a real Mac and have it copy to a real graphics controller every frame. The virtual graphics controller could wrap a real graphics controller so it appears seamless.

 

[Snial]

Do you have the SCSI card? Interesting, mine isn't loud.

It was originally a server B&W with a SCSI PCI card, but that's been removed.

The 1.1.1f4 Power Mac G3 (Blue & White) Firmware Update 1.1 says it can update these versions:
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.0b4 BootROM built on 11/06/98 at 09:04:50
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.0f3 BootROM built on 12/08/98 at 17:37:15
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.0f5 BootROM built on 02/15/99 at 18:06:39
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.1d7 BootROM built on 02/19/99 at 18:51:52
Apple PowerMac1,1 1.1f1 BootROM built on 03/08/99 at 13:29:20

So, are you saying existing firmware updates provide workarounds for the IDE issues?

Since we have the full source code for the Firmware Update 1.1 Open Firmware script and code for the firmware parts, and code for many ROMs, we could do stuff like back port support for multi boot GUI, FireWire Target Disk Mode, FireWire and USB Boot, maybe telnet, etc.
https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?thr...-custom-startup-sound-rom-hack-success.25758/

Hmm, so the ROM is Flash and you think it's possible to update the firmware to provide all these things? That would be astounding! I'd be well up for that.

For 4-bit color mode, you need a graphics card and driver that supports 4-bit color mode. <snip> Power Mac 6100 <snip> Sheep Shaver <snip>. I'm making a graphics controller for the DingusPPC emulator that supports all the color modes for all the supported PowerPC Macs. I don't know of any existing PCI cards that support all the color modes. I suppose one could setup a virtual graphics controller on a real Mac and have it copy to a real graphics controller every frame. The virtual graphics controller could wrap a real graphics controller so it appears seamless.

OK. Erm, it's got an ATI Rage? I didn't make any effort to work out if it could support 4-bit video beyond clicking the button on the Control Strip. I had a lot of fun last evening, and very happy the Zip drive didn't chew up the Zip disk!

PS: My PPC assembler familiarity is terrible. Here's my guess at the code:

                   mfpvr    r1              ;move from pvr?
                   srwi     r1,r1,16        ;shift right word immediate.
                   andi.    r2,r1,0x8000    ;and immediate & update flags
 FFF03A50          beq      $+40            ;branch if =0
                   li       r2,1            ;load immediate.
                   slw      r2,r2,r1        ;shift left word reg.
                   andi.    r1,r2,7         ;and immediate & update flags
 FFF03A50          beq      $+24            ;branch if =0
                   mfspr    r1,HID1         ;move from supervisor reg?
                   ori      r1,r1,0x0800    ;Or immediate (no flag update)
                   mtspr    HID1,r1         ;move to supervisor reg?
                   isync                    ;instruction cache sync (barrier)
 FFF03A50          b        $+4             ;branch.
                   lis      r2,0xC410       ;load immediate signed.
 FFF03188          b        $-2252           ;branch.

 

[joevt]

So, are you saying existing firmware updates provide workarounds for the IDE issues?

The updater says it just improves PCI performance. I don't have a dump of the original firmware to compare so I don't know what changes were applied. My latest ROM list is at https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/pex-rom-project.23568/post-573923
I usually update the list at
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...l-work-in-a-beige-power-macintosh-g3.2303689/
since this forum doesn't allow edits.

Hmm, so the ROM is Flash and you think it's possible to update the firmware to provide all these things? That would be astounding! I'd be well up for that.

It may be years before I try that. Working on other stuff. Any programmer could probably do it with the info we've gathered.

OK. Erm, it's got an ATI Rage? I didn't make any effort to work out if it could support 4-bit video beyond clicking the button on the Control Strip. I had a lot of fun last evening, and very happy the Zip drive didn't chew up the Zip disk!

DingusPPC emulates some really old ATI cards. They support 4 bit color but not 2 bit or 1 bit color. If you got one of those cards then 4 bit may work if the drivers include the 4 bit mode. I don't remember which system if any has the 4 bit option.

PS: My PPC assembler familiarity is terrible. Here's my guess at the code:

                   mfpvr    r1              ;move from pvr?
                   srwi     r1,r1,16        ;shift right word immediate.
                   andi.    r2,r1,0x8000    ;and immediate & update flags
 FFF03A50          beq      $+40            ;branch if =0
                   li       r2,1            ;load immediate.
                   slw      r2,r2,r1        ;shift left word reg.
                   andi.    r1,r2,7         ;and immediate & update flags
 FFF03A50          beq      $+24            ;branch if =0
                   mfspr    r1,HID1         ;move from supervisor reg?
                   ori      r1,r1,0x0800    ;Or immediate (no flag update)
                   mtspr    HID1,r1         ;move to supervisor reg?
                   isync                    ;instruction cache sync (barrier)
 FFF03A50          b        $+4             ;branch.
                   lis      r2,0xC410       ;load immediate signed.
 FFF03188          b        $-2252           ;branch.

Some PVR IDs are listed at https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/supporting-information/PPCPVR.pdf
0x8####### represents several G4s.

For these G4s, I think it's setting bit 20 (PPC counting) of HID1.
I think that's this bit:

20 SYNCBE Address broadcast enable for sync, eieio
- 0 Address broadcasting of sync, and eieio is disabled.
- 1 Address broadcasting of sync, and eieio is enabled. Note this bit must be set in MP systems and systems that reorder stores.

 

[Durosity]

Also on a side note, you need to find yourself the matching 15" Studio Display (and keyboard) to complete this beautiful beastie!

 

[mikes-macs]

Depending on the amount of Memory it has couldn't you install Mac OS 9 onto a RAM disk and boot from that instead of a CD? How do system setting get saved if booted from a locked CD? I keep a Netboot server around so I can boot from that when needed.

 

[Snial]

Depending on the amount of Memory it has couldn't you install Mac OS 9 onto a RAM disk and boot from that instead of a CD? How do system setting get saved if booted from a locked CD? I keep a Netboot server around so I can boot from that when needed.

Well I could have some fun trying that but most control panels don’t work because it’s not possible to write prefs to the CD!

I am not seriously trying to substitute a CD for a hard disk and get a fully usable system. I’m playing around to see what’s possible until the SATA card arrives or I get hold of a PCI ATA card (or if all fails, graciously accept the offer of a Rev 2 Mobo).

So, a-ha, it might be fun to try the RAM disk!

I have considered conjuring up a minimal Mac OS 8.6 on a Zip disk and boot from that.

Another possibility - just as mad is this sequence:
1. Boot 8.6 via the CD like I have with 9.1.
2. Create a System Folder on the Zip disk and bless it by putting in the System file and Mac OS ROM only.
3. Create a Preferences folder on the Zip disk and copy all the 9.1 prefs to it
4. Create aliases of all the other folders on the CD on the Zip disk.
5. Reboot with the Zip disk inserted.

Since aliases, I think are supported at the System level, it should treat all the aliases of files and folders that don’t get modified as the real things, so a decent Mac OS 8.6 or 9.1 could boot in far less than 100MB.

See, fun and games!

 

[zefrenchtoon]

@Snial if I correctly understood your problem then I have quite the same on my Yikes which should not have a dodgy controller.
But I got it to boot on my flash drive when the flash drive is connected on the ATAPI ribbon. So I loose the CD to get my flash drive.

The side problem I have with my flash drive is that I can not select its master/slaver status.

 

[Snial]

@Snial if I correctly understood your problem then I have quite the same on my Yikes which should not have a dodgy controller.
But I got it to boot on my flash drive when the flash drive is connected on the ATAPI ribbon. So I loose the CD to get my flash drive.

The side problem I have with my flash drive is that I can not select its master/slaver status.

Thanks for the reply. There's two ATA connectors. The RHS one folds over and under the logic board, then up through the chassis to feed both the ZIP drive and CDROM (at least that must be the case, because the ZIP drive is ATA and so is the CD-ROM). The other ATA connector feeds the HD only.

So, are you saying the problem doesn't happen if you replace one of those drives with an ATA HD? So, I could, e.g. replace the ZIP drive with an ATA, putting the CD ROM (actually DVD ROM) and HD on the same ATA?

Is there evidence that this is a real solution? It's not just an artefact of maybe the ZIP drive and DVD ROM not supporting fast DMA data transfer rates?

Also on a side note, you need to find yourself the matching 15" Studio Display (and keyboard) to complete this beautiful beastie!

I've let you down and I'm deeply sorry. It's like beauty next to the beast and only a 15" beast too. Perhaps that's the inner reason why the HD kept failing as well ;-) .