Why iBook G4 A1133 left palm is so hot!

[rickyzhang]

I just owned a used iBook G4 for my PPC emulation project. But after some compiling, I can feel that the left palm is hot!

I haven't opened the case. But it seems that hard drive is the culprit:

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iBook+G4+12-Inch+1.33+GHz+Hard+Drive+Replacement/703

The previous owner upgrade IDE hard drive to 120GB and memory to 1.5GB.

Should I buy a mSATA SSD to replace the spinning disk? In fact, I'm quite happy with the current hard drive speed. But I just want to make sure with rest of the owners to confirm that it is hard drive causing heat issues.

TIA

 

[Anonymous Freak]

They probably replaced the hard drive with not just a larger one, but a faster-spinning one (7200 RPM,) for better performance.  The iBooks weren't designed with 7200 RPM drives in mind, so it probably is the culprit.

An mSATA SSD won't install in there without multiple adapters, but if you're willing to do it, that would likely solve the problem.

 

[Elfen]

An mSATA SSD won't install in there without multiple adapters, but if you're willing to do it, that would likely solve the problem.

Along those lines, you can use a PATA-SSD or a CF-to-IDE on the G4 and G3 iBooks and PowerBooks. 1/2 of my G3/G4 portable collection uses these SSD set ups. They do run cooler but it is still hot on that area, because the CPU and GPU Heatsink is also in that area, just above the hard drive (under the keyboard by location) and the internal metal frame conducts the heat about the area.

Check and clean out the fan and air ducts in the rear of the iBook. if you are cautious and brave, you can remove the heat sink, clean it and the CPU/GPUs up and replace the Heat Sink goo. These thing will cool it down.

 

[rickyzhang]

@Elfen

I'm snooping the post regarding to replace IDE hd to SSD. But I wonder if the speed really helps that much due to slow IDE interface.

I can't find iBook G4 IDE interface specs. Can it reach as high as IDE 2 133MB/s? I found that you used PATA2 kingspecs. But it doesn't sell in amazon any more. In any case, I believe previous owner may get a fast spinning disk already. So I may not see much performance improvement with SSD update.

For now, I will open it first and add thermal paste. I can't stand the heat. I have to remote desktop and ssh to it.

 

[Bunsen]

remote desktop and ssh to it.

Why not put it on a small raised shelf on your desk and use an external keyboard and mouse?  A wire shelf would help with the cooling.

 

[rickyzhang]

I put iBook on the top of 'Introduction to Algorithm' book. The book is thick as brick. I leave a left side out and put a fan blowing on the left. It compiled macport stuff for my project overnight. With the active external fan cooling, I don't feel any heat on left palm. But it is not an acceptable way to type. There is no more space to add external keyboard. So I have to ssh. 

I bought thermal past yesterday from Bestbuy. Today It took me an hour to disassemble by referencing ifixit. However, I haven't finish taking out the heat sink yet. There are still several dangerous steps need to get it done carefully. I'm curious if it is thermal pad or thermal paste.

I'm considering buying something like below https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BCSYZG4/ref=s9_top_hd_bw_b2Rr10l_g147_i5?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-3&pf_rd_r=RKP2H3EFZPGJM5E9GGVA&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=bfe1ca85-5e87-5e4e-8d92-b1969b5b9994&pf_rd_i=2243862011

To my surprise, It is cheaper than my diamond powder thermal paste.

 

[TheWhiteFalcon]

It'll be pads on the chipset and GPU, most likely paste on the CPU.

 

[galgot]

Hi Rickyzhang ! 

maybe building sheep_net is too much for that poor iBookG4

You are lucky to have one with a functioning GPU.

On mine, I have to "cook" the GPU if I want to have it working for 2/3 days...

Cheers

 

[rickyzhang]

I still haven't opened it all the way to the heat sink. There are so many different types of Philip screws with tiny different length. I'm pretty sure I will mess them up.

I have to order a pill organizer with at least 20+ containers to properly store them (order this one -- https://www.amazon.com/Apex-7-day-Mediplanner-Pill-Organizer/dp/B000LR9ZNK/ref=sr_1_5_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1471861670&sr=1-5&keywords=Pill+Organizer)

I don't have any thermal pad. I may need one. 

PS: I found a webpage: http://jurriaandevos.nl/improve_ibook_g4_cooling/ The picture is hosted in dropbox. But due to overload traffic, I can't see them any more. So I don't know how he mod the heat system.

@galgot

I spent some time to compile SDL and GTK2 from macport on this PPC tiger OS. 

I have concern that this new bought collection will die soon given the heat.

 

[rickyzhang]

I gave up to keep on opening it. First of all, there are way too many screw. Secondly, I believe I need to figure it out what causes the over heating, otherwise there is no point to open it.

There are several potential culprits:

• thermal pad is not touching CPU/GPU/north bridge
• hard drive overheat

I have a piece of sample code from book Mac OS X Internal to query internal temperate sensor. It can get temperature of memory, CPU, GPU and battery. But to query hard drive temperature, I need to figure it out read from S.M.A.R.T in tiger.

The hard drive turns out is Western Digital Scorpio Blue WD1600BEVE 160GB 5400 RPM 8MB Cache PATA 2.5". It is not 7200rpm one. 

 

[TheWhiteFalcon]

I've run that same disk in a 12" PowerBook and a 14" iBook, without any issues.

 

[Bunsen]

Boot from external drive and put the internal to sleep - see if the temperatures are any better.

 

[rickyzhang]

I haven't figured it out how to boot from USB. There is a lot of reading on open firmware.

I bought a laptop cool stand like this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01469DJLM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It does help cooling down temperature and stays below 60C. The only drawback is that I have use external keyboard.

I'm also studying I/O Kit and developing a program to control fan speed via I2C. It is work-in-progress and not ready for release yet. Once it is done, I will release it.

I know there is an app for that called g4control or something. But it is closed source. It should be fairly easy to write an app for that.

 

[Elfen]

Every time I try to post here, the PC laptop (Yes, a PC!) Crashes! My G4 is down until I get a "new" hard drive for it, as it is too full...

As I remember, the G4's ATA was a ATA100, while the G3's were a ATA66. I do have several with KingSpec PATA II SSDs and SanDisk 400X CF/IDE-SSDs in my G3 and G4 iBooks and PowerPooks but nothing over 32GB as I bought them YEARS AGO! But they are amazingly quick! Shit, thinking about it, I've put them in since '05 and they are still going strong! That's over 11 years! On Non-SSD Systems, I try to put in a 7200RPM Disk there and the G4 is very happy with that. The one remaining system with an original 5400 RPM HD is horrible - that spinning beach ball pops up for almost everything after I click on it!

Sorry about this being late, hopefully it will answer your questions.

 

[Elfen]

I haven't figured it out how to boot from USB. There is a lot of reading on open firmware.

I have not figured out how to boot from USB either... :-/

Those that have, according to the posts on this forum, say that it is very slow, but they say that it works well enough to restore a Mac on. It is just that it is very slow.... taking all day for a job that should, at worst, take a couple of hours to do.

 

[rickyzhang]

@Elfen

According to Mactracker, USB 2.0 in G4 can reach 480 Mbit/s around 48 MB/s. It is definitely slower than IDE if you running large file backup in sequential I/O.

I ordered IDE-mSATA adapter from Hong Kong. It is cheap. But I'm happy with spinning hard drive speed on iBook G4 except the heat. I'm doing some research and found that using IDE to m-SATA adapter with SSD may not solve the heat problem.

Most m-SATA SSD have over heat issues as well. I learn that crucial SSD throttle the read/write once temperature reach some level (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RQA6LFA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=PYBJJ8E2ZK5K&coliid=I2PAC7TJ8C1VVH&psc=1) I'm curious if you can run S.M.A.R.T on your KingSpec PATA II SSDs and see how hight it goes during normal use. How about the speed? 

 

[asaggynoodle]

I know I'm a bit late to the part here, but swapping the hard drive on the G4 ibooks is probably the most difficult computer tear down there is (Not even joking). It can be done, but take not there is around ~30 screws, and more hidden plastic clips than you can count. I had planned on doing an Overclocking Thread on the A1133 long ago, but gave up due to the difficulty of the tear down/rebuild. I've done it several times, but it takes about ~1-2 hours for full disassembly, replacement, then rebuild depending on your skill.

The thermals are 90% going to be the CPU/Platform Controller, the thermal paste/pads as you mentioned are almost always the problem. They had been terrible in 2005, let alone over a decade later. 

Biggest problem I've personally had with the stack of them I tinker with is the Fans, almost consistently they are going out on all of them. It's such a shame they didn't adopt the Powerbook assembly, a few Philips screws and you're in to everything.

As for the SSD's, you should NOT have any problem with the Drive itself overheating. Unless you're dealing with a shady SSD from the Shenzhen market; reliability of the drive with regards to thermals should be non existent. I have two NGFF SSD's in RAID-0 that do well over 1.3Gb/s read speeds for hours without a temperature increase over a few degrees.

*Edit, YOU CAN boot from USB. I've done it on several occasions, but from my experience it has only worked with burning the OS X image to the USB in the Disk Utility. I forgot the command, but if my memory serves me correctly you want to dev / ls until you find the boot partition on your USB stick in Openfirmware.

 

[winterlight]

I just recently replaced my original HDD in my iBook G4 with an SSD.

It was certainly difficult but worth it.  A couple of suggestions:

For the teardown:

- I put all the screws in their rough position on the bottom shell once I got that off. It makes a nice little tray...  I placed the screws in a position on the tray corresponding with where they came from on the laptop.  Then I put a sheet of the saran wrap press n' seal (not the regular cellophane)  to keep the screws there while I messed around with the laptop.  The iFixit walkthrough is very valuable too.

The SSD

- Speed difference is pretty notable.  I used a 120GB SATA III SSD with a PATA to SATA adapter.  Had to remove the SSD case and just use the SSD internals (which were tiny)   I placed padded tape on the SSD internals to prevent shorts with the other metal parts.

Isolating your spinning HDD as the cause of heat and using a USB HDD

- Try booting your machine with the OS install disc (if you have one).  In theory the internal HDD shouldn't be working much at all in this scenario.

- ALSO in this way you can see your attached USB HDD without resorting to the whole open firmware route. (which was very painful)  If you do it this way you can use Disk Utility to do everything and it's really REALLY simple.

- If you do resort to open firmware here's one tip.  Whatever bootloader you're using (yaboot for PPC I believe)  You have to specify the full path to it.  So the command would be something like: "boot usb1/disk@1:3,\install\yaboot"

I'm using the iBook G4 I took apart to write this!

Hope it helps!

 

[swamprock]

I just recently replaced my original HDD in my iBook G4 with an SSD.<snip>

As did I...

<snip>I'm using the iBook G4 I took apart to write this!</snip>

As am I...

It was certainly difficult but worth it. A couple of suggestions:

For the teardown:

- I put all the screws in their rough position on the bottom shell once I got that off. It makes a nice little tray... I placed the screws in a position on the tray corresponding with where they came from on the laptop. Then I put a sheet of the saran wrap press n' seal (not the regular cellophane) to keep the screws there while I messed around with the laptop. The iFixit walkthrough is very valuable too.

The SSD

- Speed difference is pretty notable. I used a 120GB SATA III SSD with a PATA to SATA adapter. Had to remove the SSD case and just use the SSD internals (which were tiny) I placed padded tape on the SSD internals to prevent shorts with the other metal parts.

Isolating your spinning HDD as the cause of heat and using a USB HDD

- Try booting your machine with the OS install disc (if you have one). In theory the internal HDD shouldn't be working much at all in this scenario.

- ALSO in this way you can see your attached USB HDD without resorting to the whole open firmware route. (which was very painful) If you do it this way you can use Disk Utility to do everything and it's really REALLY simple.

- If you do resort to open firmware here's one tip. Whatever bootloader you're using (yaboot for PPC I believe) You have to specify the full path to it. So the command would be something like: "boot usb1/disk@1:3,\install\yaboot"

All great advice, but I would also add- be VERY careful with the headers holding the trackpad, speaker, and power connectors when removing them. I ruined my first iBook G4 by not being careful enough, and the solder points were so oxidized that the trackpad header pulled off the board with very little effort. I could not reattach the header either due to the oxidation, and I am equipped for these sort of repairs. There are some comments on the ifixit page for the A1133 model that everyone should follow when attempting a drive swap, such as holding down the header with a precision flat-head screwdriver and slowly prying the connectors off. I only removed the trackpad connector, as someone there mentioned being able to lean the top case and metal shield against the screen. This worked just fine on my second attempt (on a different iBook) and I'm typing this post on it...
With regards to the screws, I just used the ifixit guide and a piece of paper. I drew little squares and put the number of the step in each square with the screws as I went. I ended up with only one extra (I'm sure it went on the top shield and I just forgot it)...