virtual 68000 compatibility vs macos 8.6, 9.0, 9.2.2, and rhapsody.

[vexatious]

Powermac G4 AGP 2.0 (think it's sawtooth)

Powerbook G4 Ti DVI with mobility radeon 7000 series

Powerbook Aluminum with mobility radeon 9600

Older Sega programs provided for Developers are necessary for my use.  I'm a content creator and software developer.  These programs are only 68000 System 7 (with Kanji Talk) compatible, and also require Kanji Talk installed on System 7.  

I'm also needing scsi to interface the target (Sega 32X CD).  I'm actually confused here because typically it'd be better to virtualize a custom buffer through a system extension (or writing a Microsoft software WDM driver for Windows) and interfacing the target through PCI.  Ethernet also seems more logical via hyperscsi or iscsi, or other protocol. These Sega programs recommend scsi but if possible I'd like to use a faster G5 with a PCI bridge adapter, but I still need System 7 compatibility.

Is the IBM PC Microsoft compatible Adaptec 29160N PCI card known to work (supposedly it does in open firmware) under MacOS 8-9-rhapsody?

Which PowerPC machine would give me the most compatibility with least amount of problems?  Should I just use gnu toolchains under NextStep 3.3 on a 8086 machine?

Thanks

 

[cheesestraws]

These programs are only 68000 System 7 (with Kanji Talk) compatible, and also require Kanji Talk installed on System 7.   

'm also needing scsi to interface the target (Sega 32X CD).

I'm currently very tired and sleep-deprived, so this may not be useful, but: the Basilisk II emulator will emulate System 7 and, if I remember correctly, you can pass through SCSI devices from the host to it on many operating systems.  So you could pass through your Sega kit directly to the emulated 680x0 mMc.

 

[vexatious]

Thanks cheesestraws.  It seems you're right but I've read reports of scsi passthrough not working unless the local host is chicago (e.g. win95/98/me).  I hope this works transparently on a G5.  There's "Softmac" which I wasn't aware of for 8086 Microsoft Chicago and post NT 5.0, but not sure about scsi passthrough.

I'm looking forward to a G5 with sheepshaver and/or basilisk ii with functional scsi but the "System 7" with Kanji Talk is definitely a must, so I hope kanji talk will install without issue on Macos 8-9-rhapsody but those OS's might be missing certain provisions for transparency.

I guess I can only start testing things for now without a definite resolution.

 

[cheesestraws]

Thanks cheesestraws.  It seems you're right but I've read reports of scsi passthrough not working unless the local host is chicago (e.g. win95/98/me).  I hope this works transparently on a G5.  There's "Softmac" which I wasn't aware of for 8086 Microsoft Chicago and post NT 5.0, but not sure about scsi passthrough.

Well, the manual contains instructions for BSD and Linux, too, so it sounds like it ought to work for other things.  Are you reading a very old version of the manual?

I'm looking forward to a G5 with sheepshaver and/or basilisk ii with functional scsi but the "System 7" with Kanji Talk is definitely a must, so I hope kanji talk will install without issue on Macos 8-9-rhapsody but those OS's might be missing certain provisions for transparency.

From 8-9 I believe it was rolled into the mainline system as just the Japanese-language version of the OS.  It very definitely will not install on Rhapsody, which is a completely different OS, much nearer to OS X than OS 9.

Should I just use gnu toolchains under NextStep 3.3 on a 8086 machine? 

I think trying to use NeXTSTEP here is just going to make things even more confusing and I'm not actually sure how it would help at all...  I was thinking about how I would probably do this as I drifted off to sleep last night, because I'm trendy like that, and I think what I would probably try first is:

• Stick a smallish Linux or BSD on something (probably Linux).  Something like lubuntu.  This makes installing things like the GNU toolchain and 680x0 cross-compilers and stuff (I don't know much about Sega dev) pretty easy.  I would personally do this on x86 hardware, but that's because that's what I've got hanging about and spare.
  
• Stick a really, really boring SCSI card in it.  Preferably an old one that has been thoroughly debugged.
  
• Run Basilisk II with 7.x and KanjiTalk in it for the specialist applications.
  
  
  Use the host filing system to exchange files between the host and the emulated VM
  
• Use SCSI forwarding to talk to the Sega hardware
  
• Bear in mind you'll have to fiddle with permissions to let BII talk to the actual hardware.
  

I don't know if that would work, it's only a theoretical idea, but that's what I'd personally try first.

 

[vexatious]

Thanks cheesestraws.  {Cheesestraws, 

I read a recent blog about scsi with basilisk II and not the manual; perhaps Basilisk II will work better than I stated. 

That's too bad about Rhapsody; was really looking forward to that. 

BTW I know what you mean about confusing: some of the programs with the Sega 32X developer packages were crossed to 8086 chicago and/or ms-dos (most notably GNU GCC 2.x and GCC-GO), so I'm thinking SoftWindows was either used under Nextstep 68000 machines, SGI Irix, and/or Indy Indigos.  It's really not clear what exact development space was used initially during fourth quarter 1993 (about the time 32X developers started), since there's clearly cross compilers available along the 68030 Apple content editing software from Sega.}

The developer CDs from Sega (Sega DTS) are hybrid Apple/PC cds.  They seem real along with some illegal copies of the documents uploaded to the WWW.  I'm guessing the mess of cross compilers with 68030 apple programs is a result of licensing restrictions and/or marketing during that time (1993-1996).

 

[vexatious]

edit 10-2-2020:

To avoid confusion,  Sega 32X (and SegaCD) is also a NextStep application which resulted from the same marketing campaign partnership with Sega called "Welcome to the Next Level".  There's the "Doom" catalogue which builds with GCC-2.x for both Atari Jaguar and/or 32X (the same project).  GCC-2.x was uploaded for Nextstep 8086 (edit: doesn't seem provided with the Sega package however...).  If necessary, Connectix Virtual PC in MacOS 8-9 should work with Nextstep 3.3 8086.

Pin from 1992 CES Las Vegas

 

[Gorgonops]

BasiliskII's SCSI passthrough worked well for me the last time I tried it on Linux, but that was 20 years ago so I'm hesitant to promise anything. You *might* actually be a better off with Sheepshaver, the PowerPC emulator; I *think* it also supports SCSI passthrough, and from the last time I looked at both it seemed like SheepShaver might be being slightly better maintained at this point.

With BasiliskII I actually got it to drive a Microtek scanner, so I know it doesn't just work on disks.

 

[vexatious]

Thanks Gorgonops!  Basilisk II definitely sounds like it'll resolve the Apple 68030 requirements; sounds like there's a stable older revision.  Thanks.

 

[cheesestraws]

It is worth a try, anyway - if it succeeds it will save you a lot of time and effort and if it doesn’t you haven’t lost very much. 

 

[Daniël]

To avoid confusion,  Sega 32X (and SegaCD) is also a NextStep application which resulted from the same marketing campaign partnership with Sega called "Welcome to the Next Level".

I have never heard of this, and cannot find any sources to confirm this either. Are you sure this is the case? The slogan was used in several languages, which did not keep the English "next", nor is it written as NeXT. I very much doubt it is a reference to Steve Jobs' NeXT.

 

[vexatious]

Haven't tried anything yet but according to macintoshgarden upload of "Japanese Language Kit v1.2":

This is the Japanese Language Kit v1.2 from Apple Computer. It requires Mac OS 7.1 or greater. Mac OS 8.5 onwards doesn't need it because it is already included with it.

If "Japanese Language Kit v1.2" includes "Kanji Talk" then it should work.  When I try, I'll try to update with results here.  Thanks and sorry for the complicated question.

 

[vexatious]

Tried classic mode with OS-9.2.2 under OSX 10.3.9 but the kanji is corrupt.  The programs are actually useable and functional but it's not practical unless the U.I. is memorized.  I'm going to try OS-9.2.2 directly and observe.  So far it seems Basilisk II may be the best choice.

 

[MrFahrenheit]

You might be better off with an actual 68030 or 68040 machine here, running System 7.1 with Kanji Talk installed. 
 

Rhapsody was an OS that had severe limitations, some of which involved the Blue Box (OS 8.6). The Blue Box was essentially an emulation layer and did not pass through everything as it would on real hardware. 
 

An example:  I used Webstar Server Suite back in 2000 to run a corporate website using a Mac. It ran under OS 8 but when we tried to upgrade to Mac OS  X Server 1.2v3 (essentially Rhapsody), it didn’t work. Rhapsody’s Blue Box wouldn’t pass the network port connections through Blue Box to the Webstar running inside. It was silent. 
 

We encountered this with other apps and with some hardware as well. 
 

If you need to use 68k and Kanji, maybe you should use a real 68k with real Kanji. 

 

[vexatious]

Tried classic mode with OS-9.2.2 under OSX 10.3.9 but the kanji is corrupt.  The programs are actually useable and functional but it's not practical unless the U.I. is memorized.  I'm going to try OS-9.2.2 directly and observe.  So far it seems Basilisk II may be the best choice.

Problem is the same after startup into OS 9.2.2..  Functional programs with corrupt Kanji and text.  Additionally, Kanji Talk can't install in OS 9.2.2.  I'm guessing the "Japanese Language Kit" was only distributed with Japanese variants of OS 8-9, and/or the machine I'm using has a minimal install of OS 9.2.2. without extra required features.  I might try installing the "Japanese Language Kit" later if I get time.

Correction to my previous post, "SoftPC" might've been the middleware used in 68030 machines for the msdos programs.

At MrFahrenheit:

A real system 7.5 68030 color machine would probably work more transparently but I don't have one...