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Using Magneto Optical drives on vintage 68k Macs

Phipli

Well-known member
I'm aware I'm the one who created the interest in optical and magneto optical technologies, talking about how the discs are the best possible archival technologies and the drives have proven themselves to be among the most reliable removable media technology formats for the '80s, '90s, and 2000s. I apologize for advocating for this in incomplete form.

I've since learned/remembered a few other things and whole MO is still the best available technology for the era, and the discs themselves will last forever, I think the drives may not:

The inevitability of time comes for all technologies. Did you ever have a playstation 2? I did and a couple years into having the thing, the laser for one of the disc types it supported suddenly went out, leaving us, if I remember correctly, able to play music and PS1 games but not PS2 games or watch DVDs with it.

As far as I know, the same is true of all optical technologies, even into the blu-ray era companies have been publishing press releases about working on the laser longevity problem. In minidiscs, you even see new-era machines from 2001-2005 that look absolutely pristine but have dead lasers, likely because despite their looks they have a lot of miles on 'em.

I don't know the underlying details of why, the best guess I have and that I've seen anyone else have is a combination of usage hours, age, and luck. Japanese minidisc machines will typically have been spinning and reading for hours a day for years on end whereas MO may have, ultimately, seen lighter duty since they can wait until it's time to do an actual r/w to light up the laser.

If SCSI DVD drives were hypothetically bootable on system 7 and/or system 7 had a UDF driver or we could make HFS/HFS+ formatted DVDs -- we'd still need to balance between DVD and MO in terms of what type of longevity we're looking for. The same is true of CD-ROMs and CD-ROMs have the advantage of that there are a lot more of 'em hanging around.

Once you author a DVD (or a CD) for a classic mac, you can back it up using dd or an ISO program on a modern computer and then re-burn it. Modern CD/DVD burners, parts, and discs are still being made.

Nobody is making maintenance parts for MO drives anymore. Ultimately -- as far as I know they're also not making maintenance parts for old SCSI DVD drives, so I don't know if that's actually a better solution.

So, changing course now may not be worthwhile since SCSI DVD drives will be nearly as uncommon as MO hardware and lots of the SCSI DVD equipment is out of stuff like mips/sparc/alpha/power workstations and servers

I suspect that we're not too far off from the most viable solution for bring-up on SCSI-era 68k/PPC Macs is to use modern SCSI replacer of some stripe. Several of them now do CDROM and hard disk emulation, so buying one to run externally as a bring-up tool in addition to internal ones is reasonable.

The nice thing there is with these SCSI replacers, can go right up to the maximum volume limits of these systems -- 4-gigs for '030s and 2TB for '040/PPCss running 7.6.1 or better. There's SCSI<>SATA Bridges for optical drives but I don't know if we've had a chance to try these with Macs. Maybe @Unknown_K has one of them?

In the mean-time, I think we should probably enjoy MO for what it is -- a fun aesthetic vintage technology with an unfortunate expiration date. (The discs themselves will almost certainly last until the HDOTU though.)


Secondarily: How much is there in terms of utilities and stuff anyway? Most of my OS 9 installs fit within ~4-5 gigs in terms of installed OS and all the software I use on 'em, let alone utilities and bring-up stuff.
The thing I worry about is when they stop making writable CDs. I... get through a lot of blank CDs still and more and more am aware that I'm one of the last. I've noticed the quality of newly bought disks is going down hill too. I keep buying different brands and they write slowly and read badly, vs. my diminishing stockpile of 15+ year old disks that burn faster and read in anything :/

Bring back the good Sony and TDK disks!
 

CircuitBored

Well-known member
I've noticed the quality of newly bought disks is going down hill too.

I am so glad to finally have some verification on this. I have had my suspicions for years but largely dismissed them as a rose-tinted memory of how good CDs used to be. I have a set of Imation CD-Rs at the moment that may as well be in the bin already.
 

Unknown_K

Well-known member
The 4.6GB MO drives are the worst for reliability which is why they died out. The media is pretty much bullet-proof.

I did install a DVD drive with EIDE to SCSI adapter into a Q950 once and I am pretty sure it read the DATA disk fine.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
I am so glad to finally have some verification on this. I have had my suspicions for years but largely dismissed them as a rose-tinted memory of how good CDs used to be. I have a set of Imation CD-Rs at the moment that may as well be in the bin already.
We should probably ask everyone if any brands are still good. There must be some out there. Memorex are pants, Philips are pants. Verbatim. Sigh.
 
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Unknown_K

Well-known member
I am so glad to finally have some verification on this. I have had my suspicions for years but largely dismissed them as a rose-tinted memory of how good CDs used to be. I have a set of Imation CD-Rs at the moment that may as well be in the bin already.
I was a major consumer or CDR/DVDR for a long time, but I don't burn them that often these days. You have to expect quality to drop when going from a CDR that used to cost $8 each to pennies these days. Same with DVD media.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
I was a major consumer or CDR/DVDR for a long time, but I don't burn them that often these days. You have to expect quality to drop when going from a CDR that used to cost $8 each to pennies these days. Same with DVD media.
We're not talking vs 90s disks (anyway, Kodak archival disks from the mid 90s failed with a weird blotchy-ness and they cost a fortune). The last two cakes I bought wont write at x10 even though they're labelled as x52. Some Sonys that were about 10 year old did.
 

Unknown_K

Well-known member
The old media still burns. I found that out when discovered a 5 pack of CDR from the 90's forgotten in a crate and I needed to burn a disc and it worked fine.

I burn CDRs mostly in modernish DVDR drives and they seem to burn at the rate they are supposed to. Older burners could have lasers going out of spec so they might not be burning at the fastest speeds (or they are old enough that they were only rated for much lower speeds).
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
I was recording CDs back in 1996. When I started I bought Mitsui Toatsu blanks at like $10+ each. They were gold dye on gold reflective background. I had no issues with recording those and playing them back, and I’ve recently tested some CDs I burned 26 years ago and they still work just fine.

The biggest issues back then were the shift to a very light green dye on silver reflective background, which is somewhat transparent when held up to some light. Older players refused to play these sometimes. They also often burned coasters.

Then there was the shift from 650MB/74min CDR to the higher density 700MB/80min blanks. Often accompanied with the shift to the lighter dye mentioned above. Those caused lots of problems in drives older than say about 1998/1999.

I sourced some Verbatim blue azo blank CDR 2 years ago and burned some CDs using a Yamaha 4416 SCSI on my Quadra 650 using Toast and they burn and read just find in the CD drives I have.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
Back on topic of magneto optical disks and drives: I won the eBay auction for 20x brand new 9.1GB MO cartridges. So now I’m all in for getting a drive I can use with them.

I found that some of the 9.1GB MO drives shipped with Software Architects driver software for Macintosh. I wonder what they mean by that (as in what it’s actually called).

Looking forward to making gigantic recovery disks.

My Mac OS system software image collection is over 4GB on its own. I have about 10 DVDS worth of software from back in the day, and my NAS shows over 2TB of 68k software, so having that on a 68k accessible device would be great.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
The 4.6GB MO drives are the worst for reliability which is why they died out. The media is pretty much bullet-proof.

I did install a DVD drive with EIDE to SCSI adapter into a Q950 once and I am pretty sure it read the DATA disk fine.
Was it one particular brand vs. another that had reliability issues? I know Pinnacle Micro was among the worst drive makers in the industry, regardless of drive type or model.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
Okay. I picked up an HP SureStore Optical 9100mx 5.25” 9.1GB magneto optical drive. It’s an external SCSI and it supports the Macintosh according to the manual.

I cannot find any “drivers” per se for this device but SCSI Probe and FWB Hard Disk Toolkit sees it.

Upon inserting a brand new 9.1GB (4096 byte/sector) disk, it picks up that its 4.18GB (per side). Okay… strange. If I try to format a disk using FWB 3.0 it seems do freeze the machine. The activity light on the drive does go, and I can hear the very faint sound of the head moving and performing functions, but then it stops and nothing happens. The activity light then goes out.

Maybe I’m not waiting long enough? I dunno. It seems to freeze up the Mac.

I rebooted and tried an earlier version of FWB (2.5.3) and it did the same thing with quick format. So I rebooted again, and this time it’s going through a low level full format. It’s been 15 minutes out of the 30 minutes estimated until completion, and the activity light is on steady and disk heads are making sounds.

Do you think it might need to low level format brand new never used disks? Is it possible I’m not waiting long enough when it appears to freeze? Could the drive just be bad? Is there a better tool for formatting 4.x GB (per side) magneto optical removable disks? FWB has always been my “go to” and so I’ve never really placed any faith in anything else.

Thorts?
 

olePigeon

Well-known member
Oh. Right. HFS has a maximum partition size of 2GB. For a single 9GB partition, would need to be MacOS 8 or higher with HFS+.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
Oh. Right. HFS has a maximum partition size of 2GB. For a single 9GB partition, would need to be MacOS 8 or higher with HFS+.
I’m creating 2GB partition on the disk as a trial, using a LC 475 and Mac OS 7.6.1. Drive is the only external device, SCSI ID 5. It has termination block installed. Cable is a known good cable.

Internal drive is a SCSI with the SCA80 to 50 adapter and proper termination, ID zero.

That internal hard drive has a 32GB partition by the way, working just fine.
 

olePigeon

Well-known member
Oh, OK. 7.6.1 should be able to handle it. I wonder if using OS X and Disk Utility would work better.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
I also just tried a Sony RMO-S561 with the same disk, and it seems to perform in the same way (ie: it doesn’t seem to work). Not sure how to proceed at this point.

I might crawl under my desk and attach one of these to my G5 with a SCSI card and try from there. Still open to thorts from above.
 

MrFahrenheit

Well-known member
The disks I have are 4096 byte per sector. FWB only gives 512 bytes per sector in the options (see below). Is this the same thing, and could this be the issue?


B173A175-1084-4226-B1A5-1552C2282BAD.jpeg
 
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