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The Great Gazelle PCI Hack Thread, Part 2

cheesestraws

Well-known member
I'd be careful selling one of these machines with a combo card unless you know the person buying

Just leave the patcher application on the HD with a big obvious note on the desktop saying what to do, or something. So long as you're not booting off the combo card, that's fine: that's how my TAM came, for example.
 

macuserman

Well-known member
Just leave the patcher application on the HD with a big obvious note on the desktop saying what to do, or something. So long as you're not booting off the combo card, that's fine: that's how my TAM came, for example.
Yeah I mean that's kinda what I figured although I need to figure out how it works myself. But I'd personally rather have a 2.0 combo card in a machine with just one pci slot but that's just me even if it has to be patched if something like that changed. Can't please everyone of course, but that's just me.
 

Melkhior

Well-known member
For those tinkering with OpenFirmware, an entire OpenFirmware implementation is available on GitHub: https://github.com/MitchBradley/openfirmware/. Although probably not directly the one used by Apple, it has PPC code for the PREP specifications, I believe. Perhaps it could be useful if someone wants to figure out how to enumerate devices behind PCI bridges.
It can also be useful to 'detokenize' Forth code; Another command 'detok' is also available in e.g. the fcode-utils package in some Linux distribution. Those can help poke around a dump of the problematic Mac ROM, if that is available (such as figuring out if some words defined in Apple's ROM appear also in Firmworks' implementation).
 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
That could be useful. One of the major obstacles I'm running into, frankly, is my own competence: my Forth is not good at all, and especially reading other people's Forth is painful for me. So I'll have a look but it may give me a headache :-D.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
So first issue. I've found that open firmware on the 6500 and similar age machines doesn't read HFS or HFS+.

:/

Also, having issues with only the 255 characters being written into NVRAMRC.
 

pc297

Member
I confirm that this works with the Tango 2.0 PCI (latest version) on a PM 5500, both USB and firewire enabled! Many thanks @cheesestraws! Also just to confirm that with the OrangeLink PCI USB+FW, only USB shows up in System Profiler, outside of the device tree, just as with the Tango 2.0.

On a different note, I am still having issues with 3D acceleration when the card is enabled (onboard Rage IIc 2Mb), as with the OrangeLink card, I thought my OrangeLink card had some issues (a capacitor had come off and I soldered it back on) but then again it doesn't seem to be specific to it. The symptoms are random crashes whenever QuickDraw3D or OpenGL are invoked. This does not happen when the nvram patch isn't present (either the OrangeLink one or the current one). I have tried various revisions of the ATI extensions including the latest ones (as in as of 2002 or so) but to no avail. Any ideas? Anyone else experiencing this?

I am using USB 1.5.5 and FireWire 2.8.5, however not the Firewire Enabler that came with it (only 2.5 worked with the OrangeLink card). I will try the one from 2.8.5 with the Tango 2.0, and remove the OrangeLink Firewire extension.

Cheers and well done @cheesestraws !
 

Phipli

Well-known member
@pc297 If I'm not running a card like the 9200 that needs them, I find older ATi or the stock Apple drivers work more reliably in beige G3s with a Rage II. I've not got enough hours on my 6500 to say the same is true, but I'm just running it with the Apple supplied driver so far. Only 3D I've done was Strata 3D with opengl enabled, and it behaved.

Only other thing is, are you running out of VRAM? 2MB on these machines is useless. Most of it is used up by the framebuffer leaving little for 3D. I remember not being able to play (effectively) any 3D games on a G3 with only 2MB.
 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
Very happy that this worked in your 5500, thankyou for the report :).

Any ideas? Anyone else experiencing this?

That's bizarre. The patch doesn't do anything that should affect any other card at all, it just adds devices to the tree.

I'm afraid someone who knows more about 3D acceleration will have to assist you here, this is a long way beyond my knowledge. Might be worth posting a separate thread in the PCI subforum to see if anyone's had issues with those cards in general?
 

Phipli

Well-known member
I stepped through the pitcher program in debug and it freezes at line 98? nvpack();

Do I have something set up wrong regarding libraries perhaps? I anticipate operator error.

If this is inline with what I've seen before, it will have loaded the first 255 characters then stopped after writing "$c" from "$call..."
 

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Phipli

Well-known member
Regarding my last post, I suspect operator error and that the patch I tried to load was too long. Please ignore.

Still not clear of the woods, but have some digging to do before I decide what is wrong.
 

pc297

Member
Might be worth posting a separate thread in the PCI subforum to see if anyone's had issues with those cards in general?

Yes you're absolutely right, sorry, I'll go ahead and do that to see if anyone else's ever experienced this. It might very well be the mobo itself.

Thanks again for the great work in any case! You should let Sonnet know about this, who knows :)

Cheers!
 

Swabbie

Member
Any chance I can resurrect this thread a bit? I recently restored a 6500 and am at the “add USB” stage. I for the life of me cannot get any card to work from a simple 2 port Opti FireLink based to a Tango 2.0.

I installed OS 9.1 with the Tango card installed. Installed the official sonnet 1.0 patch (found it on the wayback machine) and then the apple USB and FireWire drivers (also provided on sonnet via wayback. I can see all the USB extensions are loaded. In extensions manager I verified All extensions are on. I’ve inserted a known working USB thumb drive. Nothing works so far.

Do I understand correctly that if I install the patch provided my @cheesestraws upthread the Tango 2 should start working? I’ve read the entire thread but am unsure if the issue is mostly resolved or just lost steam since January 2022.

i found this thread from a Reddit user who replied to my appeal for help there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageApple/comments/tnk7ni
 

cheesestraws

Well-known member
(forgive my terseness, I am typing one handed due to an arm injury)

but am unsure if the issue is mostly resolved or just lost steam since January 2022.

Well, I got this to the point where it worked reliably for me (in my TAM) and nobody else seemed to be complaining about it not working. So I've been filing it under 'mostly resolved until I get around to giving it a better UI', but I've never tried it in a 6500 personally. More test data would be extremely welcome if you feel like contributing it :).

Do I understand correctly that if I install the patch provided my @cheesestraws upthread the Tango 2 should start working?

"should" is the right word. I'm not sure I'd go as far as "will" without a bit more test data, but it's been consistently good for the people who have played with it here. If that card in the Reddit post is yours then yes, that''s the second revision: the first one looks decidedly different. So it is expected that yours wouldn't work with the "official" patch. If it doesn't work with my sonnet Tango patch above (note: the Kalea one is for a different card, make sure you download the right one) then something is wrong with my patch, and that would be good information t have :)
 

Swabbie

Member
Oh this is great! I’m so glad you’re still around and so quick to respond!

Don’t worry about “terseness”-I am similarilily handicapped in that I’m tapping all this out on a tiny iPhone. Standby for Typos galore.

I am very happy to employ my time, system and very limited knowledge to help take this to the next level - so, standing by El Capitan Cheesestraws!

I want to emphasize my previous mention that I can’t even get a supposed plug and play usb card with the Opti FireLink chip to work which is particularly frustrating.

I get the incentive for you lucky TAM owners to want this Tango card to work since you have only 1 PCI to work with. I’d be happy just to get this generic USB to work. Then I’d no longer have to hump my chunky ass SCSI ext HDD enclosure around the house between it and my G3 B&W to load anything.

I’d also be really interested to know your take one the MagGarden guy I mentioned in my Reddit post who supposedly got this thing working stock without your patch - not that we have a way to get him online to comment further.

Last, I want to get clarification whether I should or should not employ the helper tool to take my system to 9.2.2. It seems like in the thread this introduced new problems into the equation. Of note was how it apparently broke Ethernet card operability (?) which I definitely don’t want to do as that is an even greater goal of mine on this unit. I have an Ethernet pci card enroute that I hope to get working in here so I can once and for all put away this scsi ext drive.

PS-hope your arm feels better soon!
 
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cheesestraws

Well-known member
I am very happy to employ my time, system and very limited knowledge to help take this to the next level - so, standing by El Capitan Cheesestraws!

Well! Grab the New Tango 2.0 patch from this post:


which has the installer in it, and run it and see what happens! :) You don't need to do the ResEdit mucking about or anything.

Several people upthread have said they needed to reset their PRAM afterwards or before to get it to work: I've never had to, but I may just be being lucky or careful in some way I'm not thinking about.


I want to emphasize my previous mention that I can’t even get a supposed plug and play usb card with the Opti FireLink chip to work which is particularly frustrating.

That is weird. But if the Tango 2.0 appears as a pci-bridge, it's at least recognising the card is there. I'd try this before blaming your machine.

I’d also be really interested to know your take one the MagGarden guy I mentioned in my Reddit post who supposedly got this thing working stock without your patch - not that we have a way to get him online to comment further.

On this page? https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/sonnet-tangotempo-firmware-update-version-13

If so, the card shown there is the earlier Tango 2.0 revision. You can tell because of the unpopulated IDE connectors at the top. The later Tango 2.0 does not have these, and is actually a totally different layout. Those have always worked well with the Sonnet-provided patch. I have one of those too, and it works fine with the original patch.

To clarify (or perhaps muddy further) a couple of confusing points about this whole mess that you raised in your reddit post:
  • I don't know what the difference is between the different versions of the firmware "patcher" from Sonnet. As far as I know there's only one "patch" out there at all, I've seen it in the Sonnet installer and also in one provided by Orange Micro. I suspect this patch was actually written by someone at Apple and handed out to multiple hardware manufacturers, but this is only a suspicion. I wonder if it was just Sonnet improving the patch installer? My patch installer is ... rudimentary.

  • It's not actually a patch in that it doesn't really change anything in the firmware at all; it's just a script that gets run on startup, more like something like AUTOEXEC.BAT for DOS. This should make it sound rather less scary, because there aren't even any semi-permanent changes. The script looks obtuse, but all it actually does is manually create the devices the computer ought to have found for itself, but didn't.

  • There was never a second patch for the second revision of Tango 2.0s as far as I know. They printed compatibility for all those machines on the box—when they found out that they weren't compatible with all those machines, Sonnet literally patched the box art with white sticky labels over most of the names of the machines. Again, if the patch had originated with Apple or a third party who had declined to update it, that would make sense of this series of events.

Last, I want to get clarification whether I should or should not employ the helper tool to take my system to 9.2.2. It seems like in the thread this introduced new problems into the equation. Of note was how it apparently broke Ethernet card operability (?) which I definitely don’t want to do as that is an even greater goal of mine on this unit. I have an Ethernet pci card enroute that I hope to get working in here so I can once and for all put away this scsi ext drive.

Well, the more weird patches you have installed, the more problems you're going to have. I run 9.2.1 on mine, never bothered with the helper. Perhaps someone who has can chime in.
 

Swabbie

Member
I’ll probably have more to add to this here comment once I get this patch loaded up on my scsi and added to my 6500 but I wanted to jump right in and say thank you very much for solving the mystery of why that MacGarden guy got this working. Different card. Case closed.

Also for your amplifying info on the history of this card and Sonnets original overstatement and subsequent backpedaling on compatibility. Second mystery solved. Great to have you onboard and helping us all out.

speaking of official sonnet patch versions I mentioned there were 3.

THIS > https://web.archive.org/web/20010814025905/http://www.sonnettech.com:80/downloads/adapter_sw.html the one official sonnet patch to which you are referring? It’s a version 1.0 (posted 14 Aug 2001)

then HERE > https://web.archive.org/web/20020606132034/http://www.sonnettech.com:80/downloads/adapter_sw.html there’s a version 1.2 (posted June 6, 2002)

then HERE > https://web.archive.org/web/20021001183239/http://www.sonnettech.com:80/downloads/adapter_sw.html there’s a 1.3 version (01 Oct 2002)

I’m swear I was able to download v 1.0 just the other day but now it errors out. Only v 1.2 is currently producing a download link.
 
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cheesestraws

Well-known member
Different card

Yes, the two variants of the Tango 2.0 are pretty different, which is why they need different patches. I assume the first revision (which is a cut down version of one of their other cards) was a stopgap solution of some kind? Dunno.

speaking of official sonnet patch versions I mentioned there were 3.

Yup. But the differences are in the application that installed the patch, not in the actual patch it puts into nvram. The nvram patch is exactly the same in all versions. I think the newer patchers recognise more cards or something, because sonnet's patcher is kinder than mine and will try not to let you shoot yourself in the foot? Don't know.

Oh, and another thing:

I want to emphasize my previous mention that I can’t even get a supposed plug and play usb card with the Opti FireLink chip to work which is particularly frustrating.

Bear in mind that if you install OS 9 without a USB card installed, the USB stack won't get installed at all and installing a USB PCI card won't work. Go back to the OS 9 installer and install the USB support, which I think is in the custom installer (? can't remember, been a while)
 

Swabbie

Member
it’s so helpful to hear that there’s really no core difference between the 3 patch versions so that can be ruled out as a source of the disconnect. I’m thankful there’s folks like you with training and brains to understand how the sausage is made on these things because I for one have no clue what “Forth” is, for example, and GitHub makes me dizzy.

Yep. Thankfully I had caught that detail from other forum discussions to have a USB card firmly in lace before upgrading from 8 to 9. FireLink card still didn’t work.

(btw-can you tell I haven’t figured out how to do quotes? Hopefully you can follow my jumping around)

For insurance I even went to the lengths of doing the Tome Viewer extraction and manual installation of all the pertinent USB extensions.

Still didn’t work Which makes this all so particularly bewildering.

I wish computer clubs were still a thing - I would so scoop up this thing and take it to a meeting for a deep dive with other enthusiasts. There’s something I’m missing or doing wrong I’m sure but haven’t cracked the case.

I am tempted to just start all over again with a full clean install. Maybe all this tinkering has put in place some sort of conflict.
 
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