The Current 128K Phenomenon

[System6+Vista]

Could a major factor for the dramatic rise in prices over specifically the few years be generational interest? I am shocked out how perfectly these posts predict my teenage embrace of the Classic Macintosh; last January I was poking around the internet at night and came across a picture of a Macintosh SE, and remembered how when I was in 2nd grade I'd played with it at school the entireday and wanted nothing more than to own one myself. It then occurred to me that because I had a job and because those computers had been rendered obsolete over a decade ago, it would easily be affordable to me. Now, I must made an aside in this story and note that among the NYU crowd I seek dramatically lower prices for almost anything I can buy, usually preferring to buy anything from the used market if possible. The next day I wrote a Craigslist ad offering $25 for any working Classic-shape system and got a working Classic from a nearby colector pronto.

Yes, I first referred almost exclusively to LEM for information. Yes, I only ventured to this forum and signed up when I encountered challenges.

That first Mac I bought cost me $25 when it may have been some $1000 1994 dollars when I was in elementary school and had no hopes of earning that quality of fiat currency. Upon realizing the Classic's limitations, my interest grew and somehow I bought a $50 SE/30 and bidded $150 on a CC and something like $170 for a pimped out and internet configured SE.

Yes, yes. But why now? Why at a time when the world's economy is depressed and people of all walks are spending more conservatively? Why not two years ago when the economy was thriving at the top of the bubble?

This may be a time when people are realizing they can wholly afford with their salaries computers they'd dreamed about as a little kid. During a recession, to this collegiate eco-nut, getting a Classic Mac was like getting a '93 Dodge Viper, or at least I showed it off to that extent. The last wave of kids who used these Macintoshes in school are finally becoming adults, and vintage is in; I can't tell you how many Oregon Trail (Apple II version) hunting scene T-shirts I've seen. And upon witnessing that trend I've observed many compliments of them, many forging hipster camaraderie over a common love for the old technology whose archaic character rebels against Facebook, 3G and iPads. In this recession, Macs are a hip, lost-cost alternative to gadgets like iPads. Furthermore, I speculate that if so, similar people's interests and thus investment in this hobby could grow like mine, which could explain the escalating prices for fully functional units, if the fascination began at a small price point.

Oh, and I'm not following the assumption that teenagers are necessarily using their parents' money to buy things online. I've always had the sense that eBay purchases are exactly the type of reason teenagers work grocery store and retail jobs,etc.

 

[Unknown_K]

It has to do with people wanting what they could not afford when younger, but also this particular stuff is also getting harder to find in good working condition.

I got into this hobby because I wanted to play around with video capture hardware I was reading about back in the early to mid 1990's (magazines I had subscriptions to). So in 2001 I think it was I purchased a 950 to setup. While looking at what parts I needed to do video I decided to spend $150 for a PM8500 and then spent a few hundred more on upgrades to run OS 9 well (G3-400, 256MB RAM, ATA/66 card, UltimateRez video). I had never touched a mac before but it seemed like a cool way to get into all the editing systems I read about in the 90's which were mostly mac based. From there I started putting together old 386/486 systems for playing DOS games and buying up more video editing cards and mac systems.

During the 2001- 2005 or so period I picked up plenty of old PC, mac, Commodore, Amiga, Atari St, IIgs stuff for very little money. Then I noticed Amiga hardware started to cost a lot more, a couple years later IIgs hardware went from being free to people actually wanting it. Now old 68K macs seem to be going up in price as well as old PC gaming cards. Even the old Thinkpads I started collecting a year ago now have multiple bids. So here I am wondering why everything I collect seems to get more expensive. Are more people my age starting to collect as a hobby? Are younger people with money and no patience starting to bid against each other? Has everyone gone recycling crazy and the supply is not meeting demand? Or has everyone who got in early just hoarded all the good stuff and there is nothing left for new collectors? How long will this upward price trend last? Is computer collecting going to end up being a legit hobby like coins, stamps, cars, comics where "experts" in the field come up with grading systems and you see mint examples at all the big auction houses?

 

[jwmcfarlin]

I think these two last posts are spot on.

There was definitely an unresolved itch to scratch with the IIcis, the Powerbook 180s, and the Powerbook 1400c I purchased. As I get on in life, I think that all you end up with are your prides and your regrets. Hopefully the stuff you're proud of is actually meaningful, and hopefully the stuff you regret is curable by spending a little money on an old computer. I count myself lucky. 3 90s era Apple laptops, most of 2 IIcis, and the usual brace of peripherals and software is a lot less expensive than an H3 or a Mustang.

The reactionary urge is another thing as well. After I read the LEM article about software bloat and such I had to agree. I started thinking about the wonderful paper correspondences I once had with people--it's been well over ten years since I sent an envelope containing a letter that I wrote with a pen. I mean, gee, if all we got from cpu clock speeds increasing by two orders of magnitude was wow, I can achieve roughly the same things I did with 4MB and 16MHz, why not revert? If I'm not the only one thinking this way, there should be an increase in the sort of purchasing trends that will see stiffer competition for classic equipment.

Also, there is someone out there right now who as a teenager thought if they only had a Lombard G3, they would be the next great American novelist. Instead, they settled on something else and when the time is ripe, they will look to eBay for succour. What's popular will shift. But there will never be a run on IIvis. Ever. Never happen.

On another note: I mentioned to someone, "You ever try to write a difficult paper on a computer hooked up to the internet?" Sweet Christ sometimes how I long for a computer that is physically unable to download and display a video of Elton John, Sting, Lady GaGa, and Bruce Springsteen singing Don't Stop Believin' by Steve Perry.

I know that some people purchase this sort of thing to establish "geek cred." I know that I get a lot of laughs from the Vectrex that sits in the corner of my office. I came by it honestly as a Christmas present in 1983. But there are people who will buy it just to display it, like a sculpture.

Consider this: If you can purchase $50 worth of broken gear, recap it and cannibalize it and put it in working order and sell it for more, is this good or bad for the hobby? Is this good or bad for the 68K community?

Best,

John

 

[solidpro]

Re: the $470 one on ebay...

I've been collecting compact macs for about 18 months now. I've got a few 128ks (here in the UK I'd say a simple unboxed (but non-yellowed) example, working but with maybe a flaky floppy drive goes for about £100-£200. I've been after a boxed one for a while but they're always for silly money. I sat there at 11pm and had a price in mind - I never put in bids, I decide what it's worth to me, considering the shipping as well and put that price in with 3 seconds left. Everything else is obviously pointless.

I was prepared to go to about $685 I think. This got me the machine delivered to my door for less than £550.

The price considered the unit was working, a bit yellowed, but most importantly - looking truely complete.

I never expect to get it for $685 but it was worth a punt. But I win. So I'm thinking - this guy has it listed as a buy-it-now the previous week for $1984.00 - crazy money - but that's obviously what he thinks it's worth. It goes for $470 - am I going to have problems?

Next morning - "sorry mate - I put the wrong power lead in to test how much memory it has and it started smoking - I emailed all the bidders to say it was fried". Wrong lead? There isn't such a thing as a wrong lead. He has good feedback so maybe it did smoke by chance or maybe he is looking to get out. So I gave him the choice - I felt $470 was a reasonable deal and would take it for that price needing attention or I could file a dispute and ultimately leave bad feedback (he has an unblemished record I doubt he woud like to cloud).

He said he would do that, throw in some extras and he feels bad.

So maybe when I get it, it will just work. Maybe I'll need to take a look.

Talking about the thread topic. I buy and sell a bit. I mainly keep, but sometimes I don't have enough money to keep it all. One of the factors in differences in price I've found is that macs in the UK go cheap to people in the UK (because they're common). However, if you offer it to Europe with a reasonable shipping price, you find there is a big demand for them in Spain, Portugal and Greece. They pay more because a lot of sellers won't ship to Europe. I do admit I sell them (successfully) at the highest price point I see on ebay, but as far as I am concerned, I take lots of pictures, pack it well, descibe it properly and provide a service others don't and it allows me to pursue my collection without it impacting on my pathetic salary. One other factor is that the price has to be a bit higher to ship to Europe etc because I take on a quantity of the risk that it might arrive damaged or broken. With Paypal, I know if there is a problem, as the seller I am at a disadvantage. So I factor in that maybe 1 in 20 deals will go sour through no fault of my own. UPS are renowned for being a complete pain in the ar5e when it comes to claims - to the point I won't claim unless it's a very valuable item.

Not sure if this all makes me an evil empire or not.... As and when I meet another collector then the price/swap changes to that level. It's just appropriation of price to the market the item is within.

 

[Mac128]

solidpro, thanks for that background. You definitely would have won it regardless, so I'm glad I didn't jump in to drive the price up any higher for you. Not to mention, how much less it actually cost you thanks to the current exchange rate with the robust British Pound!

And yes I agree I think these last few posts are particularly cogent. One of these days I will post a graph of the prices I have been monitoring so we can all get better picture of the price fluctuations and speculate further. But I am almost certain, that eBay is like Vegas, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't depending who is in the market for a 128K Mac at any given time.

And to address JDW's cynicism (and I in no way deny you that JDW ... getting burned always leaves a bad taste in your mouth), eBay is not much different than going into a Persian Bazaar, you really don't know what you've bought until you get it home and appraised. I think by this time, any veteran of eBay must go in eyes-wide-open. In the case of solidpro's steal, I stand by that. Yes, the analogue board is non-funtional, but likely repairable. If not, there are several analogue boards available now on eBay for less than $100. So let's say it costs him $570, it's still a STEAL! Even without the Mac, if solidpro had acquired the box and each accessory separately, I suspect he would have paid well over half of what he paid for the complete system. Considering even non-working 128Ks are selling for almost $200, yeah, I'd say it's a good deal.

And that is the pact we collectors make with ourselves. We weigh the value of what we bought with how much we are willing to pay. Now, for someone else, say some of Danapplemacman's buyers, who arguably pay his premiums for the guarantee of a fully serviced and functional 128K, who expects a no hassle experience, akin to buying one new in 1984, would not tolerate receiving an item in that condition, for any amount of money. You know those people who have never even seen a soldering iron. Then again, for that price (depending on how much you had to spend on such a hobby), considering you have received an otherwise complete boxed system, I would consider selling the CPU "as-is" and looking for a working one. Otherwise I would force the seller to return the item and credit a full refund.

In the end, it's still up to the buyer to do the research. In solidpro's case, it seems like the seller was pretty upfront about what was going on, even if he actually decided to swap out the functional board for a non-working board because the auction didn't get the price he wanted. At least he let solidpro know before he shipped it, and then played dumb (which I know allegedly happens). So I maintain it was a good deal, and would suggest it was a good deal for anyone one who might have purchased it – and at the risk of overusing that hot-button word, good deals on eBay are RARE!

Again, solidpro, congrats on your win, and do let us know the condition of what you finally receive ... I'm sure we're all curious now.

 

[Bunsen]

2. LaserWriter Select 360 / The seller had posted a photo of a printed page and / it just sits there

Hmm. If your inbound toner cartridge doesn't fix that, I would call that a tad dubious.

5. Powerbook 1400c. / "64MB RAM" was half virtual memory so was there a little shadyness going on?

Perhaps a little - or on the other hand a seller not understanding the difference between "Installed memory" and "Total memory" in System Profiler. It's a mistake I've seen genuine n00bs make before. The fact that a 1400 can only take 56MB of RAM might have been a small giveaway

$600 for what I bought--is that a lot

Not overly. Considering the productive set-up you have assembled, that seems like a fair total, especially given that you didn't want to wait forever for bargain basement specials. IMHO you got a mix of genuine bargains (those eMates!) slightly over the odds (second IIci - unless that included shipping?) average/fair price, and a spot of bad luck (the Laserwriter). Seems par for the ebay course to me, and you have what you want at a price you're OK with, so .. yay.

Did I unwittingly help drive prices up? Did I bore you?

No more so than everyone else who bid on those items. Such is the market. And no, not at all, that was a very interesting and relevant post. Thankyou.

/EDIT/ And thanks to everyone else who has posted about their experiences here. Most helpful and informative.

 

[jwmcfarlin]

Interesting. I been led astray about the PB 1400 memory by the LEM article, then. They say 64MB max.

Good to hear I am not too far out on the prices--all of the prices included shipping, so not too bad on the more expensive IIci, but still high.

Best,

John

 

[Bunsen]

I been led astray about the PB 1400 memory by the LEM article, then. They say 64MB max.

Seems everymac concurs. I am probably misrememberating.

so not too bad on the more expensive IIci, but still high.

Given the accessory bundle you got with it and the fact that shipping included a monitor, not excessively.
Don't mind me, I'm still pining for the days when you could pick up a dozen compacts for a dollar ) :scrambled:

 

[Scott Baret]

Watch out for all the Mac spec sites. Many of them have errors.

Some examples I can think of:

1. Mac SE/30: Many sites say it was discontinued in October 1990. It was discontinued in October 1991.

2. Mac LC II: Apple officially recommends 6.0.8 or higher, but many sites do not acknowledge that it can actually run 6.0.7 (although some do recognize the fact that an SE or Classic can run SSW older than the original version). I have been using an LC II with 6.0.7 for the past two days to test drives.

3. Mac SE: I don't think any of the major sites have recognition of the machines produced after the original discontinuation date. An SE can be as new as January 1991 (there may even be some from early February out there).

4. Macintosh ED: There's a good thread on here that explains this Mac. Most sites get it wrong and fail to recognize the many different computers tagged as such.

 

[MidnightCommando]

7 eMate300s for $50 ($7.15 each). These were a good deal, but they need new cell repacks (which I have done in the garage).

You selling any of those eMates on? Seems like you could recoup some money for the cells and labour by selling them as fully working.

 

[yuhong]

Apple officially recommends 6.0.8 or higher, but many sites do not acknowledge that it can actually run 6.0.7 (although some do recognize the fact that an SE or Classic can run SSW older than the original version). I have been using an LC II with 6.0.7 for the past two days to test drives.

6.0.8 in fact is basically 6.0.7 with LaserWriter 7.0 drivers.

 

[QuicksilverMac2001]

Since this topic was sort of hidden in the closet these days, I thought I would offer this opinion. Sometimes all of the above reasons are right, just at different times. I bought a 128k off of Craigslist after having bad to disastrous experiences with an SE, Classic, and Classic II. The vintage hard disks let me down on the SE, the Classic was working for several months (but not as long as the SE between both hard disks) and then the video blew out, and the Classic II was packed so poorly it died in shipping.

So I see that, after about 20 other vintage to retro computers with around 30 different vintage to retro hard disks all failed in the end, that I would have to forego the safety net of mass storage and try for the one machine I had previously shoved aside as not rare enough, not capable enough, not anything enough, and see if it would do better.

Long story short, I found a 128k that had all of the characteristics I insisted on, even if I had to accept every single one of the things I was willing to compromise on. It wound up working for over a year and is still working today. I couldn't get that out of more modern computers. (I had a Quadra 700, but it's hard disk died after 2 weeks. Click of Death. Same thing with an LC 575, and the SE with 2 separate 20SC hard disks. Had that not happened, I might still have those three machines today, and be much happier. Also happened to a Performa 6400/200 with 3 different hard disks. That machine I could watch TV on.

I now have an ImageWriter, a carrying case, an M0130 external floppy drive, and have purchased but not received a Kensington System Saver (those four from evilBay sadly) and I have not regretted going without a hard disk on a retro computer.

(The 400k floppy drives used in these older machines seem to be much more durable, even given that they are removable.)

Kindest wishes sincerely most,

Alex Harris

(P.S. The Twiggy prototype that just recently dropped to the slightly more affordable sum of $74,995 and some odd cents is an extreme case in point.)

 

[Mac128]

For compact Macs, I would agree that hard disks are more trouble than they are worth. Personally, given the limitations of the 68000, I prefer using an external ZIP drive -- even on a 68030 compact which might benefit from more storage. Let's face it, the old SCSI drives are getting more and more unreliable, they are generally noisy, and can be difficult to format and maintain.

With the obvious exception of stock 128 & 512k, a Zip drive can be used successfully on any Mac. Upgrading the ROM of a 128k & 512k and adding a SCSI port allows the ZIP to work with the earliest Mac. The Zip is quite, easy to use, reliable, and cheap, as well as making it easy to organize your software, rather than searching all over a large formatted hard disk without a decent search function in Vintage Macs.

Http://mac128.com/zip

Another option available to you on the 128K and 512K which makes a world of difference in lieu of a hard drive, is using an external (or internal) 800K drive. You'll find a link for this at the same site.

If Apple had released the first Mac with an 800K drive (as the Twiggy drive would have been), even with only 128K RAM, it would have been a much more pleasant experience, and might have changed Apple's future. Actually thinking about that prototype, that might have been one of the 11th hour unexpected problems with the Mac ... The developers had all been using 800K disks, so no one experienced what it was like to be constrained to a mere 400K until it was too late to do anything about it.

 

[uniserver]

yes the first thing i do when i get a vintage mac in, is plug in the local talk and copy all to my powermac 7500,

just because a hard drive works when you fire it up for the first time in 10 years, doesn't mean it works. i've had it happen 2 times now where

it boots up works, sits over night, or for a week, and then spin up click click, and spin down. very frustrating. right now i have 2 quantum 160 meg drives , i open up the drive and if i move the head over (a little) once it fully spins up it starts to work, both are doing that. if i don't move the head, they just spin up and then spin down.

 

[Mk.558]

I was fiddling with the conquest material on Sunday and fired up the SE/30 to inspect some floppy disks and plug in the trackball. I heard the sound of a grinding spinning media encountering resistance for about a second. It instantly commanded my attention and reminded me of the perilousness of digital media.

Computers and their infrastructure are rather frail. Basically, we have with our electronic gadgetry, a large superstructure supported by rather weak bonds. A real big gust of wind, and the building comes down.

Something to think about: If every electronic gadget that is in common use today, ie calculators, computers, cell phones, electronic cash registers, StuxNet infected PLCs, and so forth was instantly *gone*, how many of us would be able to do it the "old" way?

I don't have friend circles the size of celebrities, but there is only one person (although you could make that two) that knows (or says they know) how to use a slide rule (besides me). I mean, it's not critical to daily life, but a slide rule does have certain properties that are advantageous to its principle. One, a good K&E slide rule could last down to your grandchildren if it was well-cared for; two, no circuits to diagnose; three, it trains the mind to understand more fully what is going on, compared to just crunching √40 into a calculator (which, approximated, is 2√10, which is 2x3.1, or about 6.2, just off my head).

 

[uniserver]

If it got to that point it would be shot guns & clubs & survival , The grid has gone down, no time to mess with an abacus , get away from the mass confusion and riots, And try to make a life off the grid

 

[Mac128]

Interestingly, JJ Abrams is producing a new series for NBC this Fall which deals with that exact situation, in which not only has the grid gone down, but some kind of "dampening field" prevents electrical current from flowing, so it can't be repaired. Tune in to see what one person thinks would happen ...

 

[sirwiggum]

I've noticed whats happening to compact macs is what happens generally to cars.

Something fairly ubiquitous in the 80s, then they're everywhere, then they become cheap and disposable, then they become less and less, people start gathering good examples, selling them as rare and the price inflates.

When I picked up the Mac Plus in the late 90s, it was at a car boot sale (similar to "yard sale" / "flea market" etc) the man had a table full of them, I picked mine up for a £5, despite it not working (bad solder) and I thought I could pick up an ADB mouse for it (little did I know).

Schools, companies, offices, homes were getting rid of their compacts and they were everywhere.

Now, the only people who have compacts are those who want to collect them, so they aren't looking rid of them for small amounts of money.

 

[reallyrandy]

I think some of it may have to do with nostalgia and the death of Steve Jobs. I've wanted to put together a little "Mac museum" for over 10 years but upon hearing hearing of Steve Jobs passing, I actually started feeling nostalgic and re-buying some of these old Macs. I now have about 12 vintage Macs and I'm currently seeking an original 128 and if I can ever afford it, a Lisa

 

[Unknown_K]

An original Mac would be good for a museum, I just can't think of a reason to actually use one.