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Smallest (physical size) Machine to Run 7.6.1?
- Thread starter trag
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Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
The Tanzania motherboard/s as used in the 4400/7220 * are probably also worth investigating, as they support IDE drives, some have a 3x PCI riser, and they don't use a crazy wiring harness/edge connector setup. Some even have PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports. For CPU upgrades they take L2 cache slot G3s.
7220 case dimensions 5.43 H x 15.15 W x 17.4 D.
7220/4400 discussion thread
That sure looks a lot like the inside of a 7220 from my recollection.
NB:
* Not to be confused with the 7200 which is just an upgrade-crippled main series PCI board.
7220 case dimensions 5.43 H x 15.15 W x 17.4 D.
7220/4400 discussion thread
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPX_%28form_factor%29
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/case/formLPX-c.html
That sure looks a lot like the inside of a 7220 from my recollection.
NB:
One wonders if the 3x riser would work in the /200 model. One also wonders if there's a compatible 5x riser, as going on the rear panel image, it sure looks like room was provided for one.
* Not to be confused with the 7200 which is just an upgrade-crippled main series PCI board.
Thanks for continuing to think of ideas, Bunsen. The Q630 you mention is gone -- i.e. the seller mentions that he gave/sold the remains to a local fellow. I must check my email, because he may have mentioned who it was and I could check about the Q630.
The C600 he mentions was to me (I hope). I had assumed that he didn't ship it because I never received the PayPal invoice, which he mentioned in his last message, but now I see that he packed his postal receipts. So there may be a C600 in my future.
Yes, I looked at the 4400 specs as well. I'm not sure, but I think there was some specification reason why I ruled it out, but it could just have been fatigue.
I'm still leaning toward the PowerWave. I could (maybe) build a custom ZIF Carrier card for it, desolder the CPU socket and connect the ZIF Carrier by header pins, so that the Carrier would lie parallel to the board. I'd just copy PowerLogix's or NewerTech's design, so I wouldn't have to come up with anything complicated. That would get it out of the way of the PCI riser card and I could build that much, much lower. Of course, this would take it into the realm of a some-time-in-the-next-three-years project and probably cost three hundred dollars or more.
But it would be cool.
I bought the 5500 board you mentioned. We'll see what the 5500 and the C600 look like. They all use L2 slot upgrades, but a fast 603e may be plenty fast enough. But with the PowerWave I could install a 500MHz or 1GHz G3...
Except that Civilization with Civ_Fat_Hack (or whatever its called) doesn't seem to work with the PowerLogix 1GHz G3. I think I've used it with slower G3 upgrades.
The C600 he mentions was to me (I hope). I had assumed that he didn't ship it because I never received the PayPal invoice, which he mentioned in his last message, but now I see that he packed his postal receipts. So there may be a C600 in my future.
Yes, I looked at the 4400 specs as well. I'm not sure, but I think there was some specification reason why I ruled it out, but it could just have been fatigue.
I'm still leaning toward the PowerWave. I could (maybe) build a custom ZIF Carrier card for it, desolder the CPU socket and connect the ZIF Carrier by header pins, so that the Carrier would lie parallel to the board. I'd just copy PowerLogix's or NewerTech's design, so I wouldn't have to come up with anything complicated. That would get it out of the way of the PCI riser card and I could build that much, much lower. Of course, this would take it into the realm of a some-time-in-the-next-three-years project and probably cost three hundred dollars or more.
But it would be cool.
I bought the 5500 board you mentioned. We'll see what the 5500 and the C600 look like. They all use L2 slot upgrades, but a fast 603e may be plenty fast enough. But with the PowerWave I could install a 500MHz or 1GHz G3...
Except that Civilization with Civ_Fat_Hack (or whatever its called) doesn't seem to work with the PowerLogix 1GHz G3. I think I've used it with slower G3 upgrades.
I received my Umax C600 yesterday. Interesting machine. First of all, it's a Tanzania based machine, so no need for me to look into the 4400, I think. I doubt that the 4400 is any more compact in the logic board than the C600. In fact, looking at the case photos Bunsen posted, I'd guess they have the same dimensions.
The C600 logic board is 13" X 9", which means it has exactly the same dimensions as the PowerWave. So the PowerWave is still in the lead for the small machine competition. However, that 5500 board is on its way.
Another interesting thing is the riser card. It has three PCI slots and a Comm (perhaps II) slot. They're all on the riser card leading me to wonder whether the Comm slot is a form of PCI slot? I thought it was an adapted serial port. I guess not.
The third interesting point is that motherboards just weren't all that compact back then. Sheesh. I really wish there was a Mini or even a Cube that would run 7.6.1. Sigh.
I also received a 7300 board I bought. I was hoping Apple had shrunk the size since they left off the video I/O but no such luck. It's something like 11" X 13", perhaps a smidgen more than 11".
I guess I could lay out an entire PowerSurge motherboard and steal all the components off of a 7300 board.
That would be a reliability nightmare trying to solder all those big chips and then figuring out which one isn't soldered properly.
But I could leave off the CURIO chip (SCSI, ethernet, serial ports), and the MESH SCSI chip, and possibly SWIM. I really just need Hammerhead, the two memory controllers, Bandit (PCI bridge), Grand Central (Interrupt controller and interface to sound chips), the sound chip and CUDA (ADB controller), plus a ZIF socket, PCI sockets, and either some memory sockets or soldered down memory. But I'm not sure I could realistically make it smaller than a PowerWave any way. Or enough smaller to fit in a smaller case.
The C600 logic board is 13" X 9", which means it has exactly the same dimensions as the PowerWave. So the PowerWave is still in the lead for the small machine competition. However, that 5500 board is on its way.
Another interesting thing is the riser card. It has three PCI slots and a Comm (perhaps II) slot. They're all on the riser card leading me to wonder whether the Comm slot is a form of PCI slot? I thought it was an adapted serial port. I guess not.
The third interesting point is that motherboards just weren't all that compact back then. Sheesh. I really wish there was a Mini or even a Cube that would run 7.6.1. Sigh.
I also received a 7300 board I bought. I was hoping Apple had shrunk the size since they left off the video I/O but no such luck. It's something like 11" X 13", perhaps a smidgen more than 11".
I guess I could lay out an entire PowerSurge motherboard and steal all the components off of a 7300 board.
That would be a reliability nightmare trying to solder all those big chips and then figuring out which one isn't soldered properly.But I could leave off the CURIO chip (SCSI, ethernet, serial ports), and the MESH SCSI chip, and possibly SWIM. I really just need Hammerhead, the two memory controllers, Bandit (PCI bridge), Grand Central (Interrupt controller and interface to sound chips), the sound chip and CUDA (ADB controller), plus a ZIF socket, PCI sockets, and either some memory sockets or soldered down memory. But I'm not sure I could realistically make it smaller than a PowerWave any way. Or enough smaller to fit in a smaller case.
Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
If you decide that you can do without PCI or accelerated video, or even PPC, the nearest thing to that would be an LC475 or Quadra 605 logic. I have seen someone stuff one of them into a SparcStation IPX, which is about the same footprint as a Mini.
At the moment it sounds as though the 55/6500 board is going to be your best bet. From memory they are roughly square, so going on previous research should be about 9" x 9". Good luck.
I don't think the performance would be acceptable. For that matter, I think some games of that era required a PPC. Some of the games, especially ones which were cheap ports from PC games, had a very narrow window of compatibility. Of course, since those windows lasted two or three years back then, it was wide enough for game sales.
I received the 5500 board yesterday. I understand that the 5500 is Gazelle and the 4400 is Tanzania, but they sure look similar to me. The ROM chips are different but very close in numbering. Anyone have the Apple Hardware Developer Note for either or both machines? I can't find that useful stuff for legacy machines on Apple's *^&$%^&* website any more. They used to have a very nice page with all the machines listed over in the Developer section. I know I've been to that page in the last five years.
Anyway, the board is 8.25" X 8.75" if I desolder the edge connector off of the board, which I am inclined to do. It is a through-hole attachment, so I could then attach my own cables to the through-hole sites rather easily. Plus, I really don't need things like internal SCSI, nor the on-board IDE, if I'm going to install an Acard 6280 or 6880. The only thing I need out of that edge connector, which isn't brought out to the back of the board is maybe the video out, and then only if I can't figure out how to add three PCI slots instead of one.
The video is interesting with Rage II. I wonder if the later chip (Rage Pro?) which later revs. of the Beige G3 switched to could be soldered in it's place. Also wondering if the VRAM chips can be hacked to larger capacity.
But it's silly to do upgrades which will yield only marginal improvements. Sigh.
Anyway, anyone know of a pinout listing for that edge connector? For that matter, it looks like the video signals are also present in a little 22 pin socket next to the edge connector.
Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
Not a bad idea. Do you have the pinout?
There's a ready-made cable that provides mirrored video out for the 54/5500 and came standard with the 64/6500. I don't recall whether that plugs into a header on the logic board or downstream of the edge connector/wiring harness.
Scott Baret
Well-known member
Just to throw it out there--the Classic II can also run 7.6.1, and so can all PowerBooks except the 100.
Bunsen
Admin-Witchfinder-General
Thank you, Benson. I picked one up on Ebay a couple of days ago at a similar price.
I'm still waiting on getting a 6500. Mike Richardson is going to fix me up, but he hasn't emailed in a while. Either he's busy with other stuff, or I need to send him a reminder. I couldn't find anyone in Austin with a 6500 to sell/spare. I tried Freecycle, Craig's List and the LEM Swaplist. The former got me nothing. The middle got me lots of spam. The latter got me several offers from outside Austin, despite specifying local. Mike is in Houston and thinks he can keep the shipping down to $25, so I decided to go with him.
I'm still waiting on getting a 6500. Mike Richardson is going to fix me up, but he hasn't emailed in a while. Either he's busy with other stuff, or I need to send him a reminder. I couldn't find anyone in Austin with a 6500 to sell/spare. I tried Freecycle, Craig's List and the LEM Swaplist. The former got me nothing. The middle got me lots of spam. The latter got me several offers from outside Austin, despite specifying local. Mike is in Houston and thinks he can keep the shipping down to $25, so I decided to go with him.
http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/
Has links to all the legacy developer material Apple still have on it's website.
Has links to all the legacy developer material Apple still have on it's website.
I thought I'd post an update. If I get any further than this update (I.e. start actual work, instead of just buying stuff) , it'll probably be in a new thread over in Hacks.
I decided on the 5500/6500 logic board. It is small enough to fit in a Mini-ITX case. It has the disadvantages of limited CPU power (unless I can find an L2 G3 upgrade--very rare now days), limited RAM capacity (128MB), only two PCI slots (unless I build an adapter board for the COMM II slot), and no built-in Ethernet. It's advantages are its size, built-in video, and that it is powerful enough.
Here's the case I plan to use: http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=MjI0MA==
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129081
It's actually a little cheaper at Amazon, but the pictures are better at Newegg.
There are two other variations of this case with external power supplies rather than internal, and depending on fit, I may need to go to that. But the front bezel on this version looks a little nicer to my eye.
I ended up buying a 6500/300 on Ebay. I think it was about $60 with shipping. I'll add a slot loading DVD drive and some kind of hard drive. The case only supports 2.5" drives. I have my eye on the last of the WD 320GB PATA drives, but that'd be silly in what's meant to be a legacy 7.6.1 machine. Perhaps I'll get the WD 320 GB PATA 2.5" drive and put it in an AppleTV or my G4 Mini and then put the drive from that machine in this one.
To actually do the project, I'll need to:
1) Map out the front edge connector using the 6500's wiring harness.
2) Desolder the logic board edge connector. I'll start by doing this on the 5500/225 board I have on hand. Experiment on the weaker board first.
3) Provide a power supply and switch and LED harness, preferably with a molex connector which will mate with an ATX power supply connector.
4) (Optional) I'll probably connect a cable to the edge connector's IDE bus, so if my PCI card is on the fritz, I have another way of connecting a drive. (There's an external SCSI connector and I don't need any internal SCSI devices so I won't need to wire up for SCSI.)
5) See if it will all fit in the case and possibly do some sheet metal surgery. Boy, I hope there isn't a spoiler in there. At a minimum, I think I'll have to amputate the rear panel and replace it. I just hope there isn't some internal sheet metal component that interferes with some protuberance from the logic board.
6) Install an Acard 6280 or 6880 to provide ATA, and a RealTek 8169 based gigabit ethernet card. Some day, I'd like to build an adapter for the Comm II slot to turn it into a PCI slot. Then I'll move the Acard ATA card there (doesn't need an external connector) and put a Radeon 7000 in the regular PCI slot.
So that's my rather hare brained plan to keep a machine around to run 7.6.1 after I switch from my 9500 clone to an MDD, and to have the legacy machine not take up much space.
The nice thing is that if I later go to an Intel OSX machine, I will still be able to run 9.1 on this compact machine I'm building.
I decided on the 5500/6500 logic board. It is small enough to fit in a Mini-ITX case. It has the disadvantages of limited CPU power (unless I can find an L2 G3 upgrade--very rare now days), limited RAM capacity (128MB), only two PCI slots (unless I build an adapter board for the COMM II slot), and no built-in Ethernet. It's advantages are its size, built-in video, and that it is powerful enough.
Here's the case I plan to use: http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=MjI0MA==
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129081
It's actually a little cheaper at Amazon, but the pictures are better at Newegg.
There are two other variations of this case with external power supplies rather than internal, and depending on fit, I may need to go to that. But the front bezel on this version looks a little nicer to my eye.
I ended up buying a 6500/300 on Ebay. I think it was about $60 with shipping. I'll add a slot loading DVD drive and some kind of hard drive. The case only supports 2.5" drives. I have my eye on the last of the WD 320GB PATA drives, but that'd be silly in what's meant to be a legacy 7.6.1 machine. Perhaps I'll get the WD 320 GB PATA 2.5" drive and put it in an AppleTV or my G4 Mini and then put the drive from that machine in this one.
To actually do the project, I'll need to:
1) Map out the front edge connector using the 6500's wiring harness.
2) Desolder the logic board edge connector. I'll start by doing this on the 5500/225 board I have on hand. Experiment on the weaker board first.
3) Provide a power supply and switch and LED harness, preferably with a molex connector which will mate with an ATX power supply connector.
4) (Optional) I'll probably connect a cable to the edge connector's IDE bus, so if my PCI card is on the fritz, I have another way of connecting a drive. (There's an external SCSI connector and I don't need any internal SCSI devices so I won't need to wire up for SCSI.)
5) See if it will all fit in the case and possibly do some sheet metal surgery. Boy, I hope there isn't a spoiler in there. At a minimum, I think I'll have to amputate the rear panel and replace it. I just hope there isn't some internal sheet metal component that interferes with some protuberance from the logic board.
6) Install an Acard 6280 or 6880 to provide ATA, and a RealTek 8169 based gigabit ethernet card. Some day, I'd like to build an adapter for the Comm II slot to turn it into a PCI slot. Then I'll move the Acard ATA card there (doesn't need an external connector) and put a Radeon 7000 in the regular PCI slot.
So that's my rather hare brained plan to keep a machine around to run 7.6.1 after I switch from my 9500 clone to an MDD, and to have the legacy machine not take up much space.
The nice thing is that if I later go to an Intel OSX machine, I will still be able to run 9.1 on this compact machine I'm building.
waynestewart
Well-known member
This is the wiring diagram I used to adapt a 6500 motherboard to a Color Classic
http://homepage2.nifty.com/frogeye/connector.html
http://homepage2.nifty.com/frogeye/connector.html
jsarchibald
Well-known member
How about a Color Classic with the LC575 upgrade? That would be a fairly handy machine, and one of the better 68K ones too. Not to mention, small in size.
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