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Screen artifacts with a IIfx ROM
- Thread starter tt
- Start date
Charlieman
Well-known member
Normal experience with a IIsi or IIfx ROM. No harm done. If you install an accelerator the startup boing goes weird too.
Bad capacitor experience for the SE/30 is described here:
http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/repairEng.html
Simasi Mac video corruption lasts for much longer than ROM hack corruption.
Bad capacitor experience for the SE/30 is described here:
http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/repairEng.html
Simasi Mac video corruption lasts for much longer than ROM hack corruption.
Normal with a IIfx ROM. I was under the impression the IIsi rom is free of that artifact, but I spoke with JDW and he said he still gets it with the IIsi rom.
If that is the case I don't think a IIsi rom would be any more desirable than a IIfx rom, other than that it's rare.
One thing I found on my SE/30 is that the artifact does not show up if you pull the pram battery. But other people did not have the same experience. Don't know why it worked for me.
If that is the case I don't think a IIsi rom would be any more desirable than a IIfx rom, other than that it's rare.
One thing I found on my SE/30 is that the artifact does not show up if you pull the pram battery. But other people did not have the same experience. Don't know why it worked for me.
JDW
Well-known member
Is this your own personal experience or the experience of someone else, about which you have read in books or online? I ask this because I myself own both a IIsi and a IIfx ROM. I have used both extensively in more than one SE/30 motherboard. And I can tell you right now that the IIsi ROM does not in any way produce any kind of artifacts at startup. No horizontal lines, no checkerboard patterns. Now, the IIfx does produce horizontal lines for a few seconds at cold boot, but I have never, ever seen a checkerboard pattern result from the IIfx ROM!
For additional information, you can read my two AppleFritter Posts here.
Charlieman
Well-known member
Personal experience. I have tried both in my SE/30 -- upgraded with the 68030-slot DayStar PowerCache accelerator (50MHz) and an ancient Kinetics ethernet card.
JDW, when I talked with you in PM you told me the IIsi rom still produced the strange garbled artifact that I (and everybody else) get with the IIfx rom. Did I misunderstand what you said?
So now, are you saying that with the IIsi rom, the SE/30 boots 100% normally, as if it had the stock ROM and a 100% working logic board? Have you tested this on more than one logic board?
JDW
Well-known member
Yes, you totally misunderstood what I said. And I've said this in other threads on this site and on AppleFritter too.
With the IIsi ROM, without the IIsi ROM, with the IIfx ROM, without the IIfx ROM, or with any of the 3 the SE/30 ROMs that I own (all with different chips and manufacturing dates) the strange artifacts still appear on my particular SE/30 logic board (which is not the same as the "checkerboard pattern" artifacts that are the topic this thread).
I'm not saying anything different than I have said before, either in previous posts or to you directly. I get the artifacts on startup. They vanish after a few seconds. The machine then boots normally, regardless of the ROM installed, and the whole machine works perfectly fine.
And as I've said before, I cannot test on another logic board because I don't have another working board to test! I actually told you this in a PM in the past and you then replied to me by PM to apologize for having bought up all the SE/30 logic boards on EBAY. And you also told me that you sent some to Tyler for recapping and that if they come back you might consider selling me one so I could test this!
So, for the record, folks, the IIsi ROM is NOT, and I repeat, NOT causing the strange artifacts problem! And keep in mind that my strange artifacts problem is not the same as the "checkerboard pattern" problem that is the topic of this thread.
Outstanding, Charlieman! I always rejoice when something new pops up in a thread.
Such that we can all see what you are seeing, could you kindly post a photo of your screen for us when the non-stock ROM is installed? Even if you've seen it happen before, it would be good for you to test it again. (You'll need to upload the photo to Flickr or AppleFritter or another hosting service and then link to that location from this thread).
Please set your camera on a tripod when you shoot to avoid blurring. This is an important point because we are examining pixel data on old CRT screens here. We can then discuss this topic in more detail at that stage.
Thank you!
Yes JDW I still will consider selling/trading you a logic board but first I need to actually have an extra logic board to sell/trade 
Now, I am very confused.
The "strange artifacts" are what I always get with the IIfx ROM on any SE/30 logic board. They are the only artifacts I get with the IIfx ROM and go away after a few seconds and then the SE/30 boots normally.
With the stock SE/30 ROM, they do not appear.
I have tested this with 3 or 4 different logic boards and two different IIfx ROMs, and 3 different SE/30 ROMs. I always get the same results, which are:
IIfx rom:
- strange artifacts then boot normally
SE/30 rom:
- simply boot normally
Now, I am very confused.
The "strange artifacts" are what I always get with the IIfx ROM on any SE/30 logic board. They are the only artifacts I get with the IIfx ROM and go away after a few seconds and then the SE/30 boots normally.
With the stock SE/30 ROM, they do not appear.
I have tested this with 3 or 4 different logic boards and two different IIfx ROMs, and 3 different SE/30 ROMs. I always get the same results, which are:
IIfx rom:
- strange artifacts then boot normally
SE/30 rom:
- simply boot normally
JDW
Well-known member
003, please don't feel stressed out over my post above. I wasn't bashing you in any way, nor was I demanding an SE/30 logic board. I only mentioned that point because you had suggested the same thing to me in threads past; namely, that I should test with "another SE/30 logic board." But again, I cannot test that because I don't have another "working" board.
With that said, I will enlighten you on two points:
1) The working SE/30 board I have now exhibits those strange artifacts (same as shown in that photo, and not a pixel different, mind you) regardless of ROM (as I just stated above in my previous post, in addition to other threads).
2) I have another SE/30 logic board that no longer works. It did work at one time and was my primary working board. I then found an SE/30 logic board on EBAY a year ago and thought it best to have a backup in case anything happened to my primary board. I recapped both boards. I put the new board in my SE/30 and continued to use that because I wanted to make sure my recap job was perfect. But one day I had a little glitch (which I reported in detail on this site before the crash). I then pulled the new board and put back in my old. But for whatever reason, my old, trustworthy logic board no longer worked! I get horizontal lines on startup, with no bong, every single time I try to start up. I've posted in detail with many thousands of words about all I've done to fix the board, but to no avail. Something killed it and its now dead.
Whew. I said all that to give you some history. Now let me add to that by saying that "I NEVER GOT THOSE STRANGE ARTIFACTS ON MY FIRST SE/30 LOGIC BOARD WITH ANY ROM!" And yes, I had my IIsi and IIfx and multiple SE/30 ROMs at that time (at the time my original SE/30 logic board worked). No problems whatsoever. The only thing that I did see was horizontal lines at cold boot for a few short seconds when the IIfx ROM was used. But I read many, many posts online about people who had the same situation as I did, so I didn't worry. Posts about what? Posts about how using the IIfx ROM will cause horizontal lines (NOT "SimasiMac" mind you!) at cold boot. But it doesn't affect the Mac in any other way at all.
I say this because, so far, I've only seen two of you out there who have seen some OTHER type of artifacts ("other than horizontal lines") when you use a IIfx ROM. The vast majority of experiences I've read parallel my own experience (with my first SE/30 logic board anyway) of generating horizontal lines at cold boot for a few short seconds, but only when a IIfx ROM is used.
The reason I asked Charlieman to post a photo for us is because I want to examine his problem more in depth. Why? Because I used to be an Apple Service tech for MicroAge Computers in California in the late 1980's, I have nearly all Larry Pina's books, I have an engineering degree, and I have a love for classic Macs that inspires me to WANT TO KNOW "WHY"! Everything I've read and experienced about "checkerboard patterns" on old SE/30 Macs points to either a bad connection at the ROM SIMM connector (dirty pads on the ROM and/or dirty or broken pads at the connector), rather than the actual ROM itself. The other possibility is a couple points on the analog board need resoldering, and I made that clear in my Applefritter post (which I've linked to above).
The part that disturbs me the most is that I've seen and read about every single type of screen anomaly EXCEPT the strange artifacts. Until I got that new SE/30 logic board with that problem, I'd never seen it myself. So despite my many years of working with old Macs, that particular problem was new to me. So I really, really want to find out what the technical reason for the problem is!
Anyway, once again, Charlieman, please post a clean and crisp photo for us.
Thanks!
With that said, I will enlighten you on two points:
1) The working SE/30 board I have now exhibits those strange artifacts (same as shown in that photo, and not a pixel different, mind you) regardless of ROM (as I just stated above in my previous post, in addition to other threads).
2) I have another SE/30 logic board that no longer works. It did work at one time and was my primary working board. I then found an SE/30 logic board on EBAY a year ago and thought it best to have a backup in case anything happened to my primary board. I recapped both boards. I put the new board in my SE/30 and continued to use that because I wanted to make sure my recap job was perfect. But one day I had a little glitch (which I reported in detail on this site before the crash). I then pulled the new board and put back in my old. But for whatever reason, my old, trustworthy logic board no longer worked! I get horizontal lines on startup, with no bong, every single time I try to start up. I've posted in detail with many thousands of words about all I've done to fix the board, but to no avail. Something killed it and its now dead.
Whew. I said all that to give you some history. Now let me add to that by saying that "I NEVER GOT THOSE STRANGE ARTIFACTS ON MY FIRST SE/30 LOGIC BOARD WITH ANY ROM!" And yes, I had my IIsi and IIfx and multiple SE/30 ROMs at that time (at the time my original SE/30 logic board worked). No problems whatsoever. The only thing that I did see was horizontal lines at cold boot for a few short seconds when the IIfx ROM was used. But I read many, many posts online about people who had the same situation as I did, so I didn't worry. Posts about what? Posts about how using the IIfx ROM will cause horizontal lines (NOT "SimasiMac" mind you!) at cold boot. But it doesn't affect the Mac in any other way at all.
I say this because, so far, I've only seen two of you out there who have seen some OTHER type of artifacts ("other than horizontal lines") when you use a IIfx ROM. The vast majority of experiences I've read parallel my own experience (with my first SE/30 logic board anyway) of generating horizontal lines at cold boot for a few short seconds, but only when a IIfx ROM is used.
The reason I asked Charlieman to post a photo for us is because I want to examine his problem more in depth. Why? Because I used to be an Apple Service tech for MicroAge Computers in California in the late 1980's, I have nearly all Larry Pina's books, I have an engineering degree, and I have a love for classic Macs that inspires me to WANT TO KNOW "WHY"! Everything I've read and experienced about "checkerboard patterns" on old SE/30 Macs points to either a bad connection at the ROM SIMM connector (dirty pads on the ROM and/or dirty or broken pads at the connector), rather than the actual ROM itself. The other possibility is a couple points on the analog board need resoldering, and I made that clear in my Applefritter post (which I've linked to above).
The part that disturbs me the most is that I've seen and read about every single type of screen anomaly EXCEPT the strange artifacts. Until I got that new SE/30 logic board with that problem, I'd never seen it myself. So despite my many years of working with old Macs, that particular problem was new to me. So I really, really want to find out what the technical reason for the problem is!
Anyway, once again, Charlieman, please post a clean and crisp photo for us.
Thanks!
It is clear to me now, the artifacts you get with the IIfx and IIsi ROM must not all be the same, I don't know what determines it though. There are many different revisions of the ROMs and if you look at different logic boards, they do not use the same chips or brands. Due to these many variations I suspect that there are a number of different possible artifacts you can experience when using a non stock ROM, all of which I believe to be harmless. At least with the ROMs and logic boards I have tried, the most common artifact I have seen are the "strange artifacts". Now that I think of it, the first socketed board I had displayed the garbled checkerboard pattern when I used the IIfx ROM.
JDW, I do believe the board you have that displays the "strange artifacts" all the time most likely has a harmless quirk in it.
JDW, I do believe the board you have that displays the "strange artifacts" all the time most likely has a harmless quirk in it.
JDW
Well-known member
003, I follow your logic about the strange artifacts 100%. But I am zealous to investigate their root cause not because I am having problems due to those artifacts, but rather due to these reasons:
(1) In all my many years of using classic Macs as an end user, and as a technician, I never saw those strange artifacts until the year 2006, after having purchased an old Mac off EBAY; and...
(2) Larry Pina puts quite nearly every single screen anomaly seen in his books. Yes, even the checkerboard pattern that tt started this thread with is in Pina's books. But guess what? Those strange artifacts are no where to be found in Pina's books or any other technical books I've read!
003, I know you are saying that *YOU* have seen them before. And by reading the posts in the Applefritter thread you can see that others have seen them too, including myself. But why didn't Pina? The quest to answer that question intrigues me, as I hope it will some of you. I really want to know! And we cannot flippantly say, "Because Pina never tried such-and-such a ROM in his SE/30" because I myself am seeing those artifacts WITH A STOCK SE/30 ROM! Actually, with 3 different kinds of SE/30 ROMs!
Now...
tt, I don't want this discussion to diverge too much from your initial question that started this thread, which centered on your checkerboard pattern problem. But you need to follow the advice I posted for you in that AppleFritter thread, which includes cleaning the ROM contacts and the ROM socket contacts. And if that doesn't solve it, you need to resolder those analog board points I mention. At that point, you need to post back here and let us know how it went. Thanks!
(1) In all my many years of using classic Macs as an end user, and as a technician, I never saw those strange artifacts until the year 2006, after having purchased an old Mac off EBAY; and...
(2) Larry Pina puts quite nearly every single screen anomaly seen in his books. Yes, even the checkerboard pattern that tt started this thread with is in Pina's books. But guess what? Those strange artifacts are no where to be found in Pina's books or any other technical books I've read!
003, I know you are saying that *YOU* have seen them before. And by reading the posts in the Applefritter thread you can see that others have seen them too, including myself. But why didn't Pina? The quest to answer that question intrigues me, as I hope it will some of you. I really want to know! And we cannot flippantly say, "Because Pina never tried such-and-such a ROM in his SE/30" because I myself am seeing those artifacts WITH A STOCK SE/30 ROM! Actually, with 3 different kinds of SE/30 ROMs!
Now...
tt, I don't want this discussion to diverge too much from your initial question that started this thread, which centered on your checkerboard pattern problem. But you need to follow the advice I posted for you in that AppleFritter thread, which includes cleaning the ROM contacts and the ROM socket contacts. And if that doesn't solve it, you need to resolder those analog board points I mention. At that point, you need to post back here and let us know how it went. Thanks!
TylerEss
Well-known member
I have seen those strange artifacts on my SE/30 screen! I have never had or used a non-stock ROM in my SE/30.
Before I replaced the capacitors on my motherboard, my SE/30 started displaying that pattern instead of starting up (no bong either) and would usually eventually bong and boot. After the replacement of the caps, it doesn't happen very often, but maybe twice a year it'll no-bong and show that.
I just always assumed that that pattern was the values the VRAM took by default when powered-up but not initialized. I was guessing that something was a little flaky in the power-on-reset and the CPU wasn't being told to bootstrap the ROM. Without any processor, the rest of the Mac will just go on its merry default way, so I assumed that was the uninitialized VRAM.
Do we even know where the VRAM lives in an SE/30? Is it stored in system memory? The jail or checkerboard pattern from misinstalled RAM seems to make me think so...
Before I replaced the capacitors on my motherboard, my SE/30 started displaying that pattern instead of starting up (no bong either) and would usually eventually bong and boot. After the replacement of the caps, it doesn't happen very often, but maybe twice a year it'll no-bong and show that.
I just always assumed that that pattern was the values the VRAM took by default when powered-up but not initialized. I was guessing that something was a little flaky in the power-on-reset and the CPU wasn't being told to bootstrap the ROM. Without any processor, the rest of the Mac will just go on its merry default way, so I assumed that was the uninitialized VRAM.
Do we even know where the VRAM lives in an SE/30? Is it stored in system memory? The jail or checkerboard pattern from misinstalled RAM seems to make me think so...
JDW
Well-known member
tt, keep in mind that you are having a "checkerboard pattern" that is totally different from the "strange artifacts" Tyler and the rest of us have been hamming on the past few days. "Checkerboards" are almost always caused by something that can be cured, in contrast to these "strange artifacts". And like I said, your "checkboard pattern" is in Larry Pina's books and all over the web and has known cures. I posted those in detail for you in the AppleFritter thread. Regardless of how innocent or safe you think it is to keep you machine that way, I strongly suggest you make efforts to remedy the problem, in accordance with the advice given in that Applefritter thread. Because, once again, your "checkboard pattern" indicates a very different problem than the "strange artifacts" some others of us are seeing.
Tyler, your experience almost parallels mine in that (a) you have shown the ROM is irrelevant and ( B) you see those "strange artifacts" often. One the board I'm using now, I've swapped ALL the caps. All but 3 are dipped tantalums and the remaining 3 are electrolytics because tans don't come that big (at least, not in any store nearest to me). But despite my having done an excellent cap job with excellent caps, I still see those "strange artifacts" on EVERY SINGLE COLD BOOT. So in my case, caps are as irrelevant as the ROM.
Tyler, your experience almost parallels mine in that (a) you have shown the ROM is irrelevant and ( B) you see those "strange artifacts" often. One the board I'm using now, I've swapped ALL the caps. All but 3 are dipped tantalums and the remaining 3 are electrolytics because tans don't come that big (at least, not in any store nearest to me). But despite my having done an excellent cap job with excellent caps, I still see those "strange artifacts" on EVERY SINGLE COLD BOOT. So in my case, caps are as irrelevant as the ROM.
JDW I think your board is just kinky. Tyler the the VROM (not sure about VRAM) is on a big socketed chip on the logic board, and it should have a sticker saying VROM.
Perhaps the VRAM is located in that array of socketed chips that are right under the RAM slots? tt, I agree
Perhaps the VRAM is located in that array of socketed chips that are right under the RAM slots? tt, I agree
JDW
Well-known member
Well, then Tyler's logic board is "kinky" as well.
And no one has yet to attempt answering my question (posted above) about why the "strange artifacts" are no where to be found in any of Pina's books or online. Look through all the many different screen anomalies. You'll find the checkerboard pattern that tt mentions, horizontal lines, vertical line, white dot in the middle of the screen, etc. But you don't find those "strange artifacts." Why? Pina did a lot of research and had first hand experience in seeing many, many different screen anomalies, but he never mentioned the "strange artifacts." A regardless of how "harmless" they may be, I want to know more about them! It's a mystery. And as a human being, I like to solve mysteries!
And no one has yet to attempt answering my question (posted above) about why the "strange artifacts" are no where to be found in any of Pina's books or online. Look through all the many different screen anomalies. You'll find the checkerboard pattern that tt mentions, horizontal lines, vertical line, white dot in the middle of the screen, etc. But you don't find those "strange artifacts." Why? Pina did a lot of research and had first hand experience in seeing many, many different screen anomalies, but he never mentioned the "strange artifacts." A regardless of how "harmless" they may be, I want to know more about them! It's a mystery. And as a human being, I like to solve mysteries!
I personally have only seen the "strange artifacts" when using a non stock ROM. And only on a cold boot.
This has been the case with every logic board I have tested to date (except the first socketed one, which displayed the warped checkerboard pattern with the IIfx rom). I have never seen one (with good caps) that displays any kind of abnormalities like the ones talked about here with a stock ROM, and I have tried a good number of different logic boards, JDW you know that
Perhaps Larry was just like me in not finding them?
Perhaps the problems you are experiencing are caused by a failing network filter and/or scsi controller? Have you tried replacing them?
This has been the case with every logic board I have tested to date (except the first socketed one, which displayed the warped checkerboard pattern with the IIfx rom). I have never seen one (with good caps) that displays any kind of abnormalities like the ones talked about here with a stock ROM, and I have tried a good number of different logic boards, JDW you know that
Perhaps Larry was just like me in not finding them?
Perhaps the problems you are experiencing are caused by a failing network filter and/or scsi controller? Have you tried replacing them?
