My Color Classic soon to be mystic?

[System6+Vista]

From the last mentioned website:

"This board works hard while you're using your Color Classic. Performing the "Takky" modifications to your Color Classic only increase the stresses placed upon the board. Not only are the power requirements increased with the new motherboard, but the VGA-Mod or the Hi-Res mod will also increase stress on critical analog board components."

Perhaps this is why my video is changing? I had a lot of problems getting my CC to turn on originally, so perhaps an already stressed analog board is being further stressed?

 

[Mac128]

Perhaps this is why my video is changing?

I didn't think you performed the 640x480 mod.

An interesting side note here: I put my Mac TV logicboard in the CC and not only did it boot up without any special enablers, the screen also had a default resolution of 640x480 without any software or hardware hacks to the analogue board. This tells me that the logic board has all the necessary output to send the proper signal to the analogue board. This is likely due to the fact that the Mac TV was designed to output 640x480 TV resolution, but I have no idea what aspect of the logic board differs to allow it. It also makes me wonder if the CC wasn't originally considered for a Compact Mac TV variant. This would explain why the CC was designed with stereo audio hardware in place (Interestingly none of the pre-580 models have stereo input, except via PDS slots). The reason why the LC 520 came into existence in the first place was because Sculley had bad eyes and took one look at the CC and declared they needed a bigger all-in-one: never mind the Mac had sold millions without one in the first place.

seems like they were planning the Classic II/LC575 parts when they originally designed the CC analog and logic board.

The Color Classic II (assume that's what you mean as the Classic II had nothing to do with stereo) did not have stereo speakers/hardware in place either. Also, the 520, 550 & Mac TV all have the same analogue boards. The original Color Classic was designed as color replacement for the Compact Mac. If you take your CC apart down to the bezel, you will see that the little perforated chin under the lip is designed to accept a standard speaker similar to ones used in the compacts. This would correct a problem that came up during the Classic manufacture which led to a factory perforation on the left side of the Classic II case for better speaker clarity: a single mono speaker facing forward like the SE's. So the CC was planned as a mono Compact from the beginning. I think the change came when they decided to use it to promote Quick Time and upgraded the quality of the speaker in a design that accommodated a left & right speaker out each side of the case vents. However, when Sculley demanded a 15" version with a CD-ROM be released alongside the CC, I think they made the decision to eliminate stereo audio from the CC, in part to keep costs down, but also to differentiate it from the 520 in the marketplace. However, the 520's logic board and analogue board are otherwise identical to the CCs, aside from certain component specs, suggesting they were already being designed for the CC (It would be interesting to see if the CC logic board is capable of discrete stereo, but simply summed to a mono output). Indeed the turn-around was so fast from Sculley's mandate they would have been hard-pressed to add anything else to the hardware. The only reason they were able to do it was because the IDG had already created the 520 case design as an experiment which they hated so much it was shelved. The engineers took it over IDG's objection and modified the CC's hardware to fit it and had the 520 on the street a mere 3 months later.

If my Compact Mac TV theory holds water, the CC would have been a much more practical computer for a dorm room bedroom anyway (the intended market for the Mac TV). The addition of the 520's CD-ROM was a last minute for a consumer model, only introduced the year before in the professional high-end Quadra, IIvx and mid-class Centris models, it was the first in an LC and intended primarily for music. Of course, the CC's size would not accommodate a CD-ROM drive, but it was not co-incidentally introduced in the same year as Apple launched their consumer products division, with the PowerCD (a combo SCSI CD-ROM drive and portable WalkMan-type audio CD player). The combination of the two would have been far more useful for the average teenager and college student than the the heavy Mac TV/entertainment center. Sadly Apple gave up on all 3 products without ever getting them right.

 

[System6+Vista]

Perhaps this is why my video is changing?

I didn't think you performed the 640x480 mod.

No, I didn't perform the hi-res mod, but perhaps the analog board isn't expecting a 33mhz 68040, 12mb of RAM, stereo sound and 1mb of VRAM either. I don't know much about this stuff, but clearly the specifications of the things it is supporting have changed.

I am having trouble finding out whether or not the CCII was stereo sound...Perhaps that was part of the aim in making the CC analog/hardware stereo-readying, seeing as the 550 shares the logic board with the CCII. There may have even been some revision throughout the lifespan of these models - for example, some of the CC logic boards are missing the CUDA buttons. As models were designed and parts demands changed, from a business perspective, some mono models may have been loaded with some stereo parts.

Does this mean that my CC is currently running stereo sound (when playing stereo audio files, of course) and the speaker is only outputting one channel? Or is it summed after the logic board?

One more question - should I have 32-bit addressing on? Or will it not matter until I exceed the 12mb

 

[Dog Cow]

One more question - should I have 32-bit addressing on? Or will it not matter until I exceed the 12mb

You can't use more than 8MB without 32-bit addressing, IIRC.

 

[LCGuy]

Yeah, you're always best off having 32 bit addressing turned on unless you've got software that only supports 24 bit.

 

[Mac128]

The analog board isn't expecting a 33mhz 68040, 12mb of RAM, stereo sound and 1mb of VRAM either.

I hadn't thought of that, but yes the analogue board is presumably set to supply less power than the 575 board demands. It could conceivably have an effect on your color. Though the possibilities are lost on me at the moment.

I am having trouble finding out whether or not the CCII was stereo sound

I corresponded with the owner of a Performa 275 in Japan who confirmed the CCII is a stereo logic board, but the analogue board is still mono (with one speaker). When you think about it, it would make no sense for Apple to manufacture a completely different logic board for the 550, when they are otherwise identical. Essentially costing more than eliminating a part or two to maintain two separate assembly lines.

Does this mean that my CC is currently running stereo sound (when playing stereo audio files, of course) and the speaker is only outputting one channel? Or is it summed after the logic board?

Yes, your 575 logic board is stereo output. The CC's analogue board may sum the stereo output to mono, or it may be outputting merely the left channel. The fact that my modified CC's analogue board accepts the discrete left and right from my 575 logic board, suggests that the CC logic board is outputting a summed signal on both the left & right lines, which the analogue board either sums or ignores. In the case of the CC, the audio signal is summed to mono from the logicboard. In other words, if you put the CC logicboard into a 575 case, the output would be mono, even in the presence of stereo amplifiers and speakers on the analogue board, the fact that it comes from both speakers means it's outputting a signal in both channels (albeit the same one). The question I have is whether the CC's ROM sums the audio signal generated from a stereo file in software, or whether this actually happens somewhere on the logic board.

But it would be interesting to know whether the analogue board is summing your 575's stereo signal or ignoring the right channel. Since we know the 575 is outputting a stereo signal to the analogue board, it would be an easy matter to play a stereo file and determine what is happening. I honestly can't remember if I removed a resistor between the L&R signal paths or if they were connected at all. However, I would fully expect the analogue board, being stereo capable, to be prepared for a future upgrade, despite being redundant for use with the CC's mono logic board.

FYI, I believe the parts required to modify the analogue board are all standard over-the-counter available, the speaker notwithstanding. I think there is something devoted to that on the CC Faq, or on Sturt Bell's site.

 

[System6+Vista]

Mac128, I'd be happy to test out how the channels are working later this week. If someone could be as kind to a) let me know what type of stereo file i'm making for a system 7.1 machine B) best program run it on the CC

Okay, so the mysitc board has been installed a few days and performance is, well, unreliable. Right now its been trying to start on the "welcome to macintosh" screen after locking up for the 3rd or 4th time. This time it locked up after trying to start disk copy 4.2, but has also started when I put in a screwy DOS disk that it didn't like. Still no reason to lock up. Right now I am tempted to restart the machine, but ehhhh. I'm thinking of doing a complete OS re-install since I haven't done that since I' got the machine. Anyone know a good way for me to install system 7.1?

 

[LCGuy]

I haven't played with sound files on the old Macs in a long time, but back in the day I used to use a freeware program called SoundApp, and used to use AIFF files.

As for your Mystic being unreliable, how was it before you put the Mystic board in? Also, what extensions and control panels are you running? Have you tried holding down the Shift key at startup to disable extensions? Just wondering, as since we're dealing with the classic Mac OS here, it could be a rogue control panel or extension thats doing it.

As for installing System 7.1 - it was distributed on either floppy disks or CDs. Its commercial software, was never made available for free legally, but it is out there, and in your case it should be perfectly legal to download it since your machine shipped with 7.1 in the first place.

 

[Mac128]

Mac128, I'd be happy to test out how the channels are working later this week. If someone could be as kind to a) let me know what type of stereo file i'm making for a system 7.1 machine B) best program run it on the CC

Quick Time should be able to convert to any older format that will work on the version of QT that came with the CC. A .mov file should be most compatible. But I would think the earliest versions of Quick Time would have supported .WAV & .AIFF. I would not suggest Apple's SND format as I believe it is mono only.

 

[System6+Vista]

Update: I had to unplug my CC from wall outlet and turn of mains (though I usually leave it soft-off because of all the trouble I had getting it on in the first place) and when I did, it turned on fine again but the clock was wrong and 32-bit addressing was turned off, though it was last set to on. Pretty fast startup, better than CC. Then I went into Memory Control Panel, turned 32-bit on, and restarted so it could take effect - THEN it was a really long startup.

Control Panels:

Color

Date & Time

Easy Access

File Sharing Monitor (does not work now because I installed system 6 file sharing server accidentally)

General Controls

Keyboard

Labels

Map

Memory

Sound

Monitors

Mouse

Numbers

Screen

Sharing Setup

SuperClock!

Startup Disk

DLS

Users & Groups

Views

MacTCP

ColorSync Profile

PC Exchange

Network

Extensions:

ColorSync

Sys7 Tuner

Apple Ethernet LC

Apple Ethernet NB

EtherTalk Phase 2

Thread Manager

Clipping Extension

Mac Drag and Droop

Quicktime 1.5

Network Extension

Dragging Enabler

Billminder

Claris Kermit Tool

Serial Tool

XMODEM Tool

Apple Modem Tool

Text Tool

TTY Tool

TTY Font

VT102Font

~Font Porter 1.0

VT102 Tool

Fax Monitor

Printer Share

Fax Print

CP Scheduler Extension

Also - A Chip called '575 Prestener' but with no wire connected was installed on the video area of the motherboard. I left it on there, this could effect video I believe?

I haven't re-installed the OS since I got it, so it is full of little old things from a past full-time user.

 

[Bunsen]

575 Presenter, maybe?

 

[LCGuy]

First things first, I'd probably think about removing anything that isn't standard, such as:

- SuperClock! (I've never had any problems with it, but there's a first time for everything)

- DLS (whatever it is)

- ColorSync Profile

- ColorSync

- System 7 Tuner (If this is the extension I'm thinking of, you shouldn't even need it for 7.1 anyway, IIRC its only for 7.0)

- all the Ethernet extensions (unless you have an ethernet card)

- Clipping Extension

- Dragging Enabler

- Billminder

- Fax Monitor

- Fax Print

- CP Scheduler Extension

Don't delete anything, just put it all in a folder named something such as "Disabled Extensions" or whatever. That'll help narrow down the problem anyway, in case it is a rogue extension or control panel. Really though, if you can, you might be best to think about finding some media to do a reinstall, that way you can start right from the beginning.

As for that 575 Presenter thing, it sounds like a part of a video out kit designed for the LC575 - quite a few of those were made back in the day, but I'm guessing its useless for you since you probably didn't get the actual video output port that comes with it...you might want to remove it too, if it looks easy enough to remove, can you show us a pic of it? I've actually never seen one of these doodads before.

 

[Bunsen]

Use Extensions Manager to do that, you don't have to do it manually. Or for a more thorough job (ie shows and moves things that EM doesn't show) seek ye a copy of Symbionts. Also a nice little app called InformINIT which can tell you what all those things are, before you go ripping out important workings from your system folder.

 

[LCGuy]

Only trouble is, he's running System 7.1 - Extensions Manager didn't show up until 7.5.

 

[Mac128]

As for that 575 Presenter thing, it sounds like a part of a video out kit designed for the LC575

Yup:

We discussed it in general here –

viewtopic.php?t=6899

And here is the link to the manufacturers website –

http://web.archive.org/web/19990819155946/www.powerr.com/prices.html

Perhaps yours is missing the connection cable?

http://web.archive.org/web/20000525151517/http://www2.sunrem.com/sun02.w?pt=076-0699&catcode=14360

 

[System6+Vista]

Yes, sorry, presenter. I guess I should take it out because it could only cause complications. Unfortunately, it did not come with the output cable, but on a Color Classic do you really want the video coming out of the main screen because , that is probably the reason you're using a Color Classic?

I took out those control panels/extensions. DLS is a daylight savings time extension. Much faster startup time! Will try more trials

 

[Mac128]

I guess I should take it out because it could only cause complications. Unfortunately, it did not come with the output cable, but on a Color Classic do you really want the video coming out of the main screen because , that is probably the reason you're using a Color Classic?

Here is the link to a current Power R auction coincidentally for the 575. For a mere $87 it can be yours! LOL

I would agree the main point of using the CC is for the small screen experience. However, if you actually use it, then at some point having a larger external screen (even if it just mirrors the CC) would be worth having, especially if you could use an LCD screen. It is unlikely the Power R allows for screen spanning however, but you never know.

As for causing problems, there are 3 models for essentially similar logic boards, the CC, 520 & 550, and 575. Now this might merely be to accommodate different connections on each, but at least the 575 includes an additional vertical signal that the others do not indicate. Considering the 575 is built around a different CPU, has different power requirements, the Power R board could be affecting the video output to the analogue board which is not designed for those signals in the first place. After seeing one, it is a fairly easy matter to remove and replace.

 

[MacJunky]

Here is the link to a current Power R auction coincidentally for the 575. For a mere $87 it can be yours! LOL

There are some cheaper ones in olde-mac-milt's store. I never thought very highly of kpsurplus to be honest. Just seems to have high prices + crap for info about the item(this may have changed since I last used ebay much though) Milt at least tries, but to be fair I have never bought from kp so I dunno.
Either way, olde-mac-milt generally has some useful stuff in his store now and then.

The video section currently contains two presenters, one said to be for 520 and the other 575.

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Ye-Olde-Mac-Milt-s-Shoppe_Video-Cards-VRAM-Monitors_W0QQ_fsubZ7QQ_sidZ187219QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

 

[Bunsen]

It is unlikely the Power R allows for screen spanning however, but you never know.

No way, no how. Mirroring only.

 

[System6+Vista]

Thanks, the CC is running very stably right now and always booting in 32-bit mode. While it would be very cool to have the display mirrored on VGA, I think I am going to simply take the 575 Presenter thing off and save my money for a full 68040 or something more useful. Now to start another thread about how to get the darn internet working!