Mac Plus and using a zip drive as a hard drive

[Charlieman]

Numero6 et autres: Si vous observent un problem...

If you spot a problem with the notes provided by Mac128 or me, please mail the relevant author. We are both interested in comments.

 

[dbraverman88]

Thank you everyone for the information. I will keep you posted with how it goes.

David

 

[numero6]

Numero6 et autres: Si vous observent un problem...
If you spot a problem with the notes provided by Mac128 or me, please mail the relevant author. We are both interested in comments.

Ok, I'll check if a newbie like me in vintage Mac world can understand everything .

It seems that the answer is no, as I can't get the Plus to boot from the Zip diskette. In fact I first spent a few hours trying unsuccessfully to format the Zip ; Lido reported an "arbitration error". I finally removed the SCSI terminator (or whatever is its name) that ended the cable and it worked all right. I thought this piece was necesary as it came with the SC20 drive. When I connected the Zip to my Performa with the terminator on it didn't bother...

Now the Plus recognizes the Zip drive, but refuses to boot from the system I copied on it, although I followed your tutorial.

 

[dbraverman88]

So far I have not succeeded in purchasing a Mac Plus. I am still trying. When I finally get one I will try out all of your suggestions. This is frustrating. I thought it would be easy to buy a used Plus from someone.

--David

 

[tomlee59]

...I finally removed the SCSI terminator (or whatever is its name) that ended the cable and it worked all right. I thought this piece was necesary as it came with the SC20 drive. When I connected the Zip to my Performa with the terminator on it didn't bother...

Now the Plus recognizes the Zip drive, but refuses to boot ...

Don't give up just yet. If the Plus now recognizes the drive, you're halfway home.

If you boot off of another volume (like a floppy) are you able to read the contents of the zip disk reliably? If not, you may still be experiencing a termination issue, or that particular zip disk could be faulty. If you can read the contents fine, then you may wish to reinstall the system and try again.

 

[tomlee59]

So far I have not succeeded in purchasing a Mac Plus. I am still trying. When I finally get one I will try out all of your suggestions. This is frustrating. I thought it would be easy to buy a used Plus from someone.

It depends a lot on where you live, I guess. If you lived here in Silicon Valley, I'd happily hand you one of my spares, gratis.

 

[dbraverman88]

tomlee59,

Thanks, but, no, I live in New York City. I now have a deal pending. We shall see if it goes through.

--David

 

[numero6]

Don't give up just yet. If the Plus now recognizes the drive, you're halfway home.
If you boot off of another volume (like a floppy) are you able to read the contents of the zip disk reliably? If not, you may still be experiencing a termination issue, or that particular zip disk could be faulty. If you can read the contents fine, then you may wish to reinstall the system and try again.

Don't worry I won't give up ! }

Booting from the floppy I can copy programs on the Zip and open them without trouble, so as you say I guess I'm close from resolving the startup problem.

 

[Mac128]

numero6, I assume you used Charlieman's method using Lido to format the Zip disk you are having trouble with?

What happens when you try to boot? Does it just keep flashing the question mark? Or do you get the happy Mac before it hangs?

Try this: boot off a system floppy, insert the Lido formatted Zip, then erase it using the System Finder. Then copy the same good system you used to erase the Zip onto it from the floppy. Then try to boot up from the Zip. FYI, my Iomega formatted Zip is set to Termination:On ID:6. Insert the Zip before you turn on the Mac Plus.

Post your results.

P.S. There's also a slight possibility you have one of the frist two Plus ROM versions that may be causing a problem. See these:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=7333

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=2000

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/hw_11.html

The differences between the original and rev. 1 & 2 ROMs are (per info article instructions above):

1) 4D1E EExx

2) 4D1E EAxx

3) 4D1F 81xx

 

[numero6]

Yes, I first formated the drive with Lido, but couldn't boot from it. I have the blinking question mark. The procedure with Lido wasn't exactly as Charlieman explained : although my Plus has 4Mb Ram, I couldn't access the formating options. Otherwise as I already said the drive works all right.

Then I tried to erase the disk through the finder and reinstall the system, but the result was the same.

Then I tried another formating app, Blue Disc Manager, with the same result !

Now I'm going to see the ROM question you suggested. I've not entered my Plus in your database yet, but I know it's a "European Macintosh 128" made in Fremont in 1984.

 

[macclassic]

Just a passing thought.

I remember seeing a control panel with Zip drives which had options of whether you wanted the drive to sleep or not.

Am I thinking of software which came with the later driver?

 

[Quadraman]

Oh man, I have a bunch of Zips here and don't know which are SCSI and which aren't. How do you tell them apart?

 

[bigD]

The SCSI Zip drives have a switch allowing you to specify one of two different SCSI IDs. That's the easiest way to tell, IMO.

 

[dbraverman88]

I am looking at a SCSI zip drive now. It has on the back two selector switches. The first turns termination on or off and the second allows you to select between a SCSI ID of 5 or 6 for the drive.

--David

BTW: I just got my Mac Plus tonight. I am going to have some fun. }

 

[Quadraman]

So far I have not succeeded in purchasing a Mac Plus. I am still trying. When I finally get one I will try out all of your suggestions. This is frustrating. I thought it would be easy to buy a used Plus from someone.
--David

Try cruising around on garbage pickup day. I found 3 of them that way. Also check on Freecycle and Craigslist.

 

[Charlieman]

I am looking at a SCSI zip drive now. It has on the back two selector switches. The first turns termination on or off and the second allows you to select between a SCSI ID of 5 or 6 for the drive.

Yes, it a SCSI Zip drive. Report back whether my method works with your Plus.

 

[Mac128]

Here's an interesting article that seems to suggest an external SCSI drive can be powered by the floppy port, thus eliminating a cable:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=5935

I wonder if the HD 20 can be modified to use this method?

 

[trag]

This is very cool stuff. Thank you for developing and preserving this knowledge.

Using a magneto-optical drive should be pretty much the same, I imagine.

I am partial to the Fujitsu DynaMO 640 drives. I sometimes find them for under $20 at Goodwill. The 640 MB disks cost about the same as a ZIP disk and are about the same size. However, there's no concern about ever getting the click of death or having the media die on you.

Back when Zips were current technology, I always thought that 640 MB MO should have been in the position ZIP was. MO was much more reliable, the media cost about the same per disk with the same form factor and each disk stores 6 times as much as a Zip. However, the Zip drives cost about half what an MO drive did, and low cost of entry is all important in consumer marketing, even if the cost of ownership is much higher.

But these days, with a little hunting one can often turn up a superior SCSI MO drive for no more than a Zip drive would cost.

 

[Charlieman]

Geography makes a difference. MO drives (and consequently, media) are less common in Europe than Zip drives. The early 120MB MO drives were popular over here in scientific environments, especially because they made it easy to exchange data between so many operating systems, but the bigger drives never really took off owing to developments in network technology (sneakernet just died).

The "click of death" Zip problem made a much smaller impact in the UK compared to the US. Zip 250 drives were accepted by consumers without concerns about past history.

 

[macintoshme]

Little late to chime in but ... I am pretty sure that the B&W g3 was the first to ship with an IDE Zip. My G3 MT came with a SCSI Zip. This thread is making me want to go reassemble the Mac II I was going to gut and put that Zip drive in it. I guess i could dremel my SE though... That would be so cool. After that modification....

4 MB RAM

Floppy

ZIP

Ethernet

200Mb HD