Mac OS 10.7 Lion and Classic Macs

[JDW]

Beachy, thanks for the link, but I am only more confused. I posted a comment on that fellow's blog. What I don't understand is:

1) Will this work to enable AppleShare IP servers too?

2) Why must the password be in clear text?

3) Why does the server need to be added to a "disable" list? And HOW does one do that for an AppleShare IP server?

4) What is the original discussion in Apple's Developer forum, from which this blogger found this solution? His URL links to nothing other than the root level of the Apple Developer Forum itself.

And so by not knowing the details, I cannot attempt that yet.

protocol7, I haven't the faintest idea how to setup a Linux virtual machine in Lion. To do that, I will need some serious hand-holding. But I will admit that when the word "Linux" is used, it sounds to me like it would be "more trouble than it's worth."

Lastly, I will add this. I am quite surprised that among all our members here on the 68kMLA, no one has yet found a way to overcome this obstacle in getting an OS 9 machine to network (with something other than the nasty FTP protocol) to a OS X Lion machine). Does this mean few have tried? Or does it mean many have tried, failed, and then neglected to post their experiences here for all to read?

 

[napabar]

AppleShare IP isn't going to help any. It doesn't have a version of AFP any "higher" or "better" than what it's contemporary client version was. Anyway you shake it, AFP 3.0 or higher (Introduced in Mac OS X) is needed these days.

I don't have too much of a problem using FTP. It's easy to bach convert multiple files to BinHex and copy them with FTP. Heck, a quick AppleScript will do both! I even wrote a BinHex app in the Mac App Store for these purposes, but there is no secret sauce. It can all be done for free with a quick script.

FTP server can be turned back on in Lion with a simple terminal command.

I'd be happy to help anybody out with these things.

 

[beachycove]

It is also possible to upload and download files through the web server in ASIP. Download works best if files are zipped or otherwise compressed. If there is no index.html file in the relevant (i.e., the webserver's shared) directory, you get a directory listing similar to the one you get in personal websharing. Upload works through adding the suffix /.upload (I think it is) to the IP address of the server in a browser. It is similar to the /.admin feature.

So that might well allow basic file transfer to and from a X.7 box.

 

[JDW]

I want a way to transfer files via Ethernet "intact" that doesn't force me to encode or compress the files and then decode/decompress them on the receiving machine. And that is why I loath FTP. Sure, it's easy to encode the files I want to transfer, on my fast iMac. But if I am transferring hundreds of megs of stuff over to a 266MHz single CPU Wallstreet, it takes a good while to decode/decompress that stuff. It's time consuming and bothersome. But with AFP transfers, you can transfer files "as is" and the files won't get destroyed in the process.

Napabar, if "AFP3 compatibility" is all that is required for me to connect my Intel iMac running Lion to my Wallstreet running OS 9.2.2, how then does the following Wiki say that "Mac OS 9.1 or later is recommended for connecting to AFP 3.x servers; for versions of original Mac OS prior to 9.1, installation of the AppleShare client 3.8.8 is required"???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Filing_Protocol

 

[napabar]

JDW, the AppleShare Client number (In your example 3.8. 8) has nothing to do with the AFP server version. They are not related.

Mac OS 9 can connect to AFP servers with 3.0. It looks like Snow Leopard introduced AFP 3.3, which broke the ability of Mac OS 9 to connect to it. In Lion, on the client side, something changed that made it unable to connect to AFP versions prior to 3.0. (Mac OS 9 uses 2.1 or 2.2 IIRC)

Heck, it might even have broke 3.0, but I don't have a 10.1 machine around here to test.

 

[JDW]

Thank you for the explanation, napabar, but the problem remains.

For the reasons stated in my previous post, I don't like FTP!!! Ack!

 

[napabar]

It would be nice if someone put a GUI front end on Netatalk for Mac OS X. Something like Rumpus would be great. Select a folder or drive, setup users, and bam! Sharing all the way back to AppleShare 1.X.

 

[bbraun]

Replacing Lion's /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer with one from Leopard works for me.

 

[JDW]

Replacing Lion's /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer with one from Leopard works for me.

Is that 10.5 Leopard, or 10.6 Snow Leopard?

By the way, the specific directory you were speaking of is:

Macintosh HD > usr > sbin > AppleFileServer

However, if you use FileBuddy (or something similar that can show hidden files), you will see that the "AppleFileServer" at that location is nothing more than a Symbolic Link. That link leads to the real file in this path:

Macintosh HD > System > Library > CoreServices > AppleFileServer > Contents > MacOS

Where AppleFileServer in that case is a 2.7MB application sitting inside the folder "CoreServices."

Doing a GetInfo on that application file, there is no "version" info given. The Modified date is Oct. 13, 2011, and the Created date is June 14, 2011.

I have a Snow Leopard install handy, so assuming the version from Snow Leopard works, the only question is, "what negative implications are there in using the older version app?"

 

[napabar]

Snow Leopard won't help you. You cannot connect from Mac OS 9 to Snow Leopard (However, you can do the reverse). The AFP service in Snow Leopard is too new. You'll need the AFP service in plain old Leopard.

Interesting idea from bbraun. I have a Leopard disc. Might have to give this a try. Leopard worked great bi-directioanlly with even 68K Macs that could do TCP over AppleShare.

 

[JDW]

From what I recall, it was the transition from 10.4.x Tiger to 10.5 Leopard that broken things. Things that worked well in Tiger died when Leopard came on the scene. As such, it makes no logical sense whatsoever that any flavor of AppleFileServer in 10.5.x or 10.6.x would resolve our OS9 networking woes in Lion. And if one sets his eyes on Tiger, it would be helpful to read through the following information:

About using the version from 10.4.8 to replace the broken version that Apple dumped on us in 10.4.9:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10328290-263.html

About how to hack the version in 10.4.9 so you don't need to use the version from 10.4.8:

http://www.macuser.de/forum/f6/mac-os-9-a-274539/#post3062557

Scroll to the bottom and see the last post on this page too:

http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/macosx10_4_9/topic4564.html#d25jun2007

A note from Apple which implies that the version from 10.4.11 solves all problems, eliminating any need to use the version from 10.4.8 or a hacked version of 10.4.9:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA24698?viewlocale=en_US

So if Apple is telling us the truth, then AppleFileServer.app from 10.4.11 should suffice (assuming bbraun is giving us the straight scoop on this app-swap actually working to restore OS9 networking with Lion). But if Apple was giving us a bogus story, then one must either use the version from 10.4.9 (with Terminal hack) or use the version from 10.4.8.

I need to get myself off to work, and I have a late nigher today, so I probably won't be about to test this in the next 24 hours. However, if one of you would like to do so, by all means! Furthermore, if this does work, it would make logical sense to prepare the AppleFileServer.app file for convenient download. Once this gets published, I imagine that most here would want to download it to get their older OS 8.6 and OS 9 Macs networking with modern Macs running Lion.

 

[bbraun]

Furthermore, if this does work, it would make logical sense to prepare the AppleFileServer.app file for convenient download

Mac OS X 10.5 License agreement[/url]"]You may not rent, lease, lend, redistribute or sublicense the Apple Software.

 

[napabar]

Leopard works great with System 7.5.3 through 9.2.2 using TCP over AppleShare.

The guys over at System 7 today even recommend 10.5 over 10.4.

Read the second paragraph at the following link.

http://main.system7today.com/articles/leopard/index.html

 

[JDW]

You may not do XXX, YYY, ZZZ...

That's what PM's are for, bbraun.

napabar, I appreciate the link. It sheds no light on whether the app-swap will work, but it does indicate that an app-swap from OS 10.5 Leopard may work. But again, only a test of such will prove it. I have Tiger and Snow Leopard and Lion, but I don't have Leopard to test. So my test will be relegated to the app I find in Tiger. However, if you find the app in Leopard works, I am happy to "accept a PM."

 

[bbraun]

Replacing Lion's /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer with one from Leopard works for me.

assuming bbraun is giving us the straight scoop

This statement is calling in to question the validity of my assertion, without providing supporting evidence. In other words, calling me a liar, which isn't a very nice thing to do. If you don't understand what I'm saying, or are unsure whether my suggestion will work for your situation, feel free to ask. For example: "What do you mean by works for you?" and "What was your test?" or "Why does replacing /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer work when it's a symlink on Lion?" are all valid and polite questions to ask.

I've also been wrong plenty of times, and if you have specific evidence that what I'm saying is false, bring that up! But to call my statement into question with no supporting evidence, or worse supporting evidence that isn't even relevant to the question at hand, it's not a very polite thing to do. Particularly when this is something really simple to try, it'll take all of maybe a minute. All I'm trying to do here is help you.

I highly recommend actually trying it before pontificating about how it will/won't work.

On Lion:

- Go to System Preferences -> Sharing and enable File Sharing

- On OS9, go to Chooser -> AppleShare, click Server IP Address... and enter the IP or hostname of your Lion machine

- Notice it will display a protocol error.

- On your Lion machine, in Terminal.app do:

sudo mv /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer.orig
sudo cp /Volumes/Leopard/usr/sbin/AppleFileServer /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer

Substitute whatever the path is to your Leopard AppleFileServer in there.

- For good measure, on your Lion machine go to System Preferences -> Sharing and disable then reenable File Sharing

- On OS9, go to Chooser -> AppleShare, click Server IP Address... and enter the IP or hostname of your Lion machine

- You should be presented with the familiar dialog to log in as guest or authenticate as a user. I authenticated as my local user, and it presents the dialog for what volume to mount. I chose my home directory.

And why does this work when AppleFileServer is a symlink to /S/L/CS/AppleFileServer.app/Contents/MacOS/AppleFileServer?

Services are typically started by launchd on OSX, so finding the AppleFileServer launchd plist that tells launchd how to launch AppleFileServer will tell us how the service is launched. The launchd man page documents places where it looks for its config files. A little investigation reveals /System/Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.AppleFileServer.plist. In it we find:

    ProgramArguments

/usr/sbin/AppleFileServer

This means launchd is using /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer, not the /S/L/CS path. So if we put our Leopard binary in /usr/sbin/, that's what launchd will use. As another option, you could place Leopard's /usr/sbin/AppleFileServer in Lion's /S/L/CS/AppleFileServer.app/Contents/MachO directory if you like, and keep the symlink in /usr/sbin. Both should work.

As a side note, there is a little sleight of hand going on here, since as of SnowLeopard launchd notion of services and their state is actually a composite of configuration information stored in multiple locations. /S/L/LD/com.apple.AppleFileServer.plist is just one of those. But, it is sufficient for the task at hand.

As for obtaining the Leopard AppleFileServer binary, the binary is copyright Apple and no one here has the legal right to give it to you. It is my understanding of the forum rules that asking someone else to violate the law, and use the forum's PM feature to do so, is not allowed. But, I am not a mod, and it is up to the mods whether blatant use of the forum's private message feature for illegal activities is allowed. Personally, I would just like to ask that you don't do it publicly. What you communicate with others in private is your own business, but I would prefer the forums did not become a place to beg for illegal software.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

[mod mode]

Keep it civil gang, this thread's subject matter is already on thin ice as it is. bbraun is trying to be helpful within the rules of the forum, so suck it up, heed the official warning and be polite.

[/mod mode]

 

[JDW]

[polite mode]

Prior to reading this thread today, I came to have the ability to scientifically test and verify the kind suggestion of bbraun in this thread; namely, the suggestion that the substitution of Lion (or Snow Leopard's) "AppleFileServer.app" (Macintosh HD > System > Library > CoreServices > AppleFileServer.app) would restore good old fashion Chooser networking between an OS 9 machine and a modern Mac. I am pleased to report, and most thankful to bbraun, that an AppleFileServer.app from OS X 10.5 Leopard does in fact do precisely what bbraun said it would.

More specifically, I conducted a test with AppleFileServer.app version 4.0.4 and found that version of the app worked to restore networking between my OS 9.2.2 PowerBook G3 Wallstreet PDQ 266MHz (128MB RAM) and my OS X Lion 10.7.2 Nov. 2009 2.8GHz Intel iMac i7 (8GB RAM) via Ethernet (a hub in between both machines). I am not sure why there is no version number in the GetInfo box for the OS X 10.7 Lion edition of AppleFileServer, but it is an observation I wish to mention. Based upon my scientific test (which amounts to following bbraun's advice, and proving his advice is undeniably true on my particular computing setup), I will make the personal assumption that any version of this AppleFileServer.app contained within OS 10.5.x Leopard, as well as any version of AppleFileServer.app contained within OS 10.4.x Tiger, will accomplish the same magic of restoring networking between an OS 9 Mac and a modern Mac running even the latest (as of this writing) OS 10.7.2 Lion (even though I have not scientifically tested those other versions to prove it).

For those of you wishing to test this for yourself, here are the steps that match what I did:

 

1) Apple Menu > System Preferences > Sharing > make sure "File Sharing" is unticked

2) Macintosh HD > System > Library > CoreServices > drag "AppleFileServer" to the Desktop (you'll need to Authenticate to do that)

3) ZIP "AppleFileServer" on your Desktop, then drag the ZIP file back into the "CoreServices" folder. (This makes it easy for you to restore the Lion version, if you wish.)

4) Drag your OS 10.4.x Tiger or OS 10.5.x Leopard version of "AppleFileServer" into the "CoreServices" folder.

5) Apple Menu > System Preferences > Sharing > tick "File Sharing" to enable it — you don't need to log-out or restart at all

6) On your OS 9 machine: Apple Menu > Chooser > AppleShare > Server IP Address... > enter the IP address of your Snow Leopard or Lion machine

7) You can now login using the same user that you established on your Snow Leopard or Lion machine.

With that said, please know that I am not in any way saying that bbraun's suggestion of using Terminal commands won't work. I simply did not test the Terminal command method because I am one of those quacky types who prefers a GUI over text commands (even if one contends the text commands may be a simpler solution). But feel free to choose whichever method you desire.

Previously, I posted the question: "what negative implications are there in using the older version app?" That question remains unanswered, but thus far I have not seen any crashing or other odd problems. So for the time being, it would appear that there are no "negative implications" in reverting back to an older edition of "AppleFileServer."

In closing, I must give honor and thanks to bbraun for having brought this excellent solution to our attention. It is unfortunate that this method isn't more widely preached. For truly, I had Googled for a significant amount of time prior to reading bbraun's excellent suggestion and had come up empty handed. But now my hands are full and I am rejoicing! I therefore can only hope that others in my shoes (no doubt there are many) will find their way to this thread and reach the solution. Had this only been about me, I would have kept the discussion off-list, exclusively in the realm of PMs. But I publicly posted here in hopes that whatever solution was found would benefit our vintage Mac community. Thank you once again, bbraun, for presenting that solution to us.

[/polite]

The Fine Print: Take care to respect the legal rights of others, especially big corporations. And while it is true that the two Steves refused to respect those legal rights in the 1970's by the manufacture and sale of highly illegal Blue Boxes that resulted in direct financial loss for phone companies, and while Apple itself perhaps would not even exist had those illicit acts never taken place, and despite Steve Jobs himself proclaiming that "great artists steal" while flying a pirate flag over the Mac team's headquarters, we today nevertheless must follow the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law, in consideration that modern day lawyers are empowered to pounce on individual vintage computing users who dare copy an otherwise hidden-from-view file from an OS X install to another, even for personal use. If you are unsure about your legal rights in this matter consult a lawyer. Always read the fine print. Never break the law. Be polite. Be respectful. And above all, definitely do not use mind altering substances while perusing the Whole Earth Catalog — the world is only big enough for one Apple.

 

[Trash80toHP_Mini]

Nice job, and good one! :lol: But you forgot to toggle [/smart@$$ mode] for the fine print! [] ]'>

 

[beachycove]

This is a really important piece of information, and thanks to all for getting it out.

 

[Cory5412]

Hi Everybody,

I'd like to take a moment to add two things to this:

1. Keep it Civil. Both with your words toward other forum members, and in your words to organizations and persons outside of the community. Apple's lawyers aren't going to go "oh haha, well then" when they come here and start asking me for lots of money for having violated their copyrights on certain bits of Mac OS X.

2. Speaking of Mac OS X binaries -- please follow the law! This isn't a piracy forum, and re-packaging some of the Mac OS X bits and posting them here or even transmitting them via the PM system is just not a good plan.

Best,

Cory W.