Just purchased Mac 512k

[JDW]

Lumpy, now I'm up against yet another hurdle. In all my 14.5 years of living here in Japan, I've never actually had the need to purchase H202. I know how the English translates into the Japanese (3% H202 sells under the brand name "Oxydol"), but most of the over the counter 3% solution products in 500ml sizes are priced higher than your US$2/bottle perhaps because the ingredients are different that what you have there in the US. The Oxitol I've seen contains ingredients like Phenacetin (pain killer) and either Ethanol or Phosphoric acid (the latter being more expensive than the Ethanol versions). What are the exact ingredients in the H202 you used? My guess is 3% H202 and 97% water, but I cannot find anything that basic here in Japan. All the Japanese stuff has other ingredients in it.

I've Googled up some H202 in the US and I see that when purchased in a case of 12 or 24 bottles, each bottle can be fetched for about US$1 each. However, stupid USPS no longer offers ocean shipping anymore, and it makes no economic sense to have a family member ship me 24 0.5L bottles of the stuff by AIR. Some of you here are Australian. Does Australia Post offer overseas ocean shipping? If so, is 3% H202 (97% water, no other ingredients) economically priced in case form like it is in the US?

The longer I live here in Japan, the more I shake my head at what we DON'T have here. We don't have even basic things like Cheerios or Raisin Bran cereal for crying out loud. So I'm not surprised we don't have basic, cheap H202 like in the US.

 

[lumpydog]

JDW:

I went out to the store today to get more h202 - I have a 2nd HD20 on the way.... The ingredients are 3%hydrogen peroxide and the remainder is water....

I wonder if the other ingredients in the Japanese H202 would be harmful to plastics... may be benign...

Lumpy

 

[JDW]

Well, I'm not eager to dip my prized Macs into overpriced Japanese H202+pain killers to find out. I'm still trying to find a way to economically source the genuine H202-in-water-only from an overseas source. If USPS still offered economical shipping to Japan by boat, I'd just get it from the US.

 

[Mac128]

Well, I'm not eager to dip my prized Macs into overpriced Japanese H202+pain killers to find out.

OK, the pain killers I get, as the practical application of H202 is to clean out wounds. The Ethanol as a disinfectant makes sense too, but, I'm not really sure I'd want to pour phosphoric acid into my open wound. That would be the stuff that would concern me with the Mac. Ethanol should not hurt the case, neither should the pain killers, but they might have a mitigating effect on the de-yellowing process. Surely there is some academic or medical supply source you might approach to get plain H202 3%/97% purified water (or even higher solution that you could dilute yourself)?

As ridiculous as this sounds, since H202 (even in 3% concentration) is technically flammable, could you even easily ship it internationally?

 

[JDW]

since H202 (even in 3% concentration) is technically flammable, could you even easily ship it internationally?

If not, I will end up using this OxiClean on textile applications. :'(

And I had such high hopes to follow Lumpy's work!

Overall, I enjoy life in Japan, as evidenced by the fact I've been here so long. I've simply learned to live without the basic things of life which I had access to bad in the days I was in California. We don't even have local Radio Shacks here. But I can tell you that, me as a non-Japanese trying to get a hold of H202 from a "medical" or "education" source would be looked upon with a tremendous amount of suspicion, should I even be able to do so at all. Ever little thing is monitored so closely here, and there is an enormous amount of red tape one must go through to do anything. Even to get a driver's license, it costs a couple thousand US Dollar and an amazing chunk of your time.

I could go on, but suffice it to say, if any of you out there have ideas for me on sourcing H202 3% in 97% water, I would certainly appreciate hearing them. I still feel that Australia may be a good source, but apparently Equill and you other Aussies are on vacation now? It's been very silent from Down Under!

 

[istar1018]

Leave it to those Amiga folks to take this de-yellowing talk to the extreme:

http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/

Looks like they involved industrial chemists and plastics engineers who a) blame the bromine used to make this old hardware flame-retardant and B) show how the reaction is actually reversed with the hydrogen peroxide / oxy additives. They've also figured out how to make a gel to paint on larger hardware. Click the links on the left for lots of details.

 

[JDW]

Well, I'm still in the same boat without access to any "true" H202 in water only.

ACK!

 

[Mac128]

Well, I'm still in the same boat without access to any "true" H202 in water only.

Actually the site's article makes a good point I was going to bring up. You should try a hair salon/supply store. You are likely to be looked upon with far less suspicion, and given the strict use of bleaching hair color with no need to mask pain, or further sterilize, their mixtures are likely to be straight H202 and water, if a higher concentration. I know they have it there as I see many pictures from Japan of men and women both sporting bleached blonde hair (I don't think there are many naturally blonde Japanese). All you need do is further dilute the concentration with water.

I actually like the RetroBright article because it goes in-depth into the science behind why. We've been speculating about an awful lot of it in this thread and RetroBright goes into detail, especially the reasoning behind the Oxy compound, which it seems is entirely geared toward speeding up the process, which otherwise only requires UV and H202 and time.

 

[lumpydog]

JDW - I too am disappointed that you can't find the right ingredients - I've been looking forward to having someone else here try it out and share their results.

I just took delivery of a second HD20 and, next to the one that I cleaned in H202, etc, the difference is just unreal. I'm going to put the 2nd HD20's case out in the sun/solution this weekend.

Since I started this thread, I've been able to get the 512K Mac up and running with the help of the wise people in these forums. I ended up fixing the clock problem via the purchase of a new logic board for $9 on eBay. Along the way, I've learned how to use a soldering iron and a multimeter - allwoing me to de/resolder the key componenets on the analog board and tune up the voltage pot and CRT (thanks to Pina's excellent books).

I've also purchased a 512Ke - it had a problem with the analog board that I was able to fix (dry joints) with some de/resoldering. I also tuned up the voltage and CRT.

Both Macs have been completely disassembled and deyellowed - along with the first HD20 that I had purchased. I disassembled the keyboards and mice as well and cleaned them spotless. I basically have two Macs that look like the day they were first opened. I now have one in my office at work and the other at home.

I'm working on downgrading the original 512K that I purchased to original spec (despite the seller's claim that it had not been upgraded, it came with the Plus upgrade - 800K drive and 128KROM) - the second logic board that I purchased had 64K ROM chips. Additionally, I was able to locate a few 400K drive brackets on eBay yesterday. All I need now is a 400K drive.

To round out my collection I have been on the lookout for a fixer-upper 128K Mac. They're a little harder to come by though - and I'm worried my wife might kick me out of the house if I keep this up :O

 

[Mac128]

I'm working on downgrading the original 512K that I purchased to original spec (despite the seller's claim that it had not been upgraded, it came with the Plus upgrade - 800K drive and 128KROM) - the second logic board that I purchased had 64K ROM chips. Additionally, I was able to locate a few 400K drive brackets on eBay yesterday. All I need now is a 400K drive.

To round out my collection I have been on the lookout for a fixer-upper 128K Mac. They're a little harder to come by though - and I'm worried my wife might kick me out of the house if I keep this up :O

Technically that was the "800K drive upgrade", which required the 512K logicboard/upgrade. The Plus upgrade was a Plus logicboard and case bucket without ROMs, which you transferred from your 800K drive upgrade and returned your old 512K board and bucket.

As for the 128K, I got lost about what you have ... do you have two 512K M0001W models, one of which was upgraded, or do you actually have one M0001E? You can probably safely get rid of the 512Ke and buy a 128K Mac. Then you can simply swap out the logicboards when you want/need two 512K Macs. Since the 512K can run an 800K disk drive and speak AppleTalk via the HD20 INIT, there is very little need to expand your collection further with 128K ROMs, or even SCSI.

 

[lumpydog]

Technically that was the "800K drive upgrade", which required the 512K logicboard/upgrade. The Plus upgrade was a Plus logicboard and case bucket without ROMs, which you transferred from your 800K drive upgrade and returned your old 512K board and bucket.

Right you are! Thanks for catching that.

As for the 128K, I got lost about what you have ... do you have two 512K M0001W models, one of which was upgraded, or do you actually have one M0001E? You can probably safely get rid of the 512Ke and buy a 128K Mac. Then you can simply swap out the logicboards when you want/need two 512K Macs. Since the 512K can run an 800K disk drive and speak AppleTalk via the HD20 INIT, there is very little need to expand your collection further with 128K ROMs, or even SCSI.

I have one M0001W and one M0001E. The purchases of these different model numbers was purposeful, and I'd like to complete the collection of the first three models with a 128K M0001 model - maybe adde a Plus to mess around with programs that require more memory. To be honest, I get the most enjoyment out of getting them up and running - and then restoring them. Unlike my first two purchases, any additions will likely be broken units.

I have an original HD20 Init disk and intend to use it to work the M0001W. I resurected my father's PowerMac 8500 (was in his basement for about 10 years) and am using that as a bridge to download compact Mac software and move it to floppies - I have OS 7, 8 and 9 running on it. Last weekend for the fun of it I ran OSs 1-10 on various Mac in my household - interesting to see the progression of the software.

 

[JDW]

Lumpy, I'd love to see a side by side photo of your 2 HD20's!

By the way, a little bird educated me to the fact that H202 manufacturers in the use tend to hide the truth that their drug store brand 3% H202 contains "stabilizers" in that so-called "97% water." Apparently, the Japanese manufacturer Oxydol is simply stating the truth of what's in their H202 bottles. Here is further information and H202 for health info.

So it appears that Lumpy's success has resulted from otherwise "tainted" H202. So the evidence indicates that I can use Japanese Oxydol 2.5~3.5% H202 solution without any problems. It simply will cost me US$2.77 per 500ml bottle.

 

[Mac128]

By the way, a little bird educated me to the fact that H202 manufacturers in the use tend to hide the truth that their drug store brand 3% H202 contains "stabilizers" in that so-called "97% water." Apparently, the Japanese manufacturer Oxydol is simply stating the truth of what's in their H202 bottles.....So it appears that Lumpy's success has resulted from otherwise "tainted" H202..

JDW, you certainly are blessed with being encircled by numerous little birdies. No one can accuse you being thorough. But your choice of words is often amusing. In particular, manufacturers "hide the truth", Oxydol "state the truth", Lumpy's "tainted" H202. LOL There's hardly a conspiracy here. While I have no reason to doubt the validity of this practice, we have something called the FDA in the USA which prevents a manufacturer from selling something in which the contents are not fully disclosed. The only exception to this is when a product contains trace elements of an ingredient. Perhaps they do add stabilizers, however since they occur well under the FDA's threshold for notability, they are not included on the label in as much as their inclusion is negligible to the interaction with the product or its uses. The fact that you listed the ingredients of your Japanese product so prominently led to the confusion by all of us, that your over-the-counter H202 was loaded with these additional ingredients. In particular, you stated yours contains "pain-killers" which would seem to have little to do with stabilization and everything to do with the application of the product. What's more, I routinely see "stabilizers" listed on a list of ingredients of all manner of products. Had the makers of Oxydol minimized their list of stabilizers to that one word, it would have been much less confusing. So, are US manufacturers engaged in a web of lies and deceit in order to peddle their tainted product on the market? No, they are simply omitting the ingredients that do not contribute in any significant way to the content of the product.

As for the price, it is a bit surprising, however, given that is intended to be used in relatively small amounts, it often lasts forever. So the real conspiracy here is the manufacturer charging well over twice the amount it's sold for in the US, given the relatively cheap production costs.

I take it you are now confident to move forward with your de-yellowing experiments once you get that "big bonus" at work so as to afford the overpriced Japanese H202? LOL

 

[JDW]

I don't know why I was PM'd this information rather than it being openly posted here for all to read. But I will say that the little bird who told me is an active participant here and one of the more knowledgeable "engineers" among us. I won't name him simply because he PM'd me and did not post his thoughts in this thread. However, I don't think it will offend him (or make him the brunt of scorn) to quote exactly what he told me...

In the US the labeling laws are biased towards telling the consumer less for food and non-food ingredients figuring the less the consumer knows the better for commerce. Here the labels usually read "Hydrogen Peroxide, USP" but the stabilizers are there and usually are revealed (sometimes if not proprietary) only in the Material Safety Data Sheet MSDS by each manufacturer. The exact trace ingredient stabilizers vary by supplier.
Metal ions can catalyze decomposition of H2O2 in the container releasing O2 and potentially bursting the container. A variety of ingredients like Phenacetin, ethanol, and pH adjusters like Phosphoric Acid are added in trace amounts to stabilize the H2O2 against these metal ion contaminants that may be present in manufacture, leach from the container, enter the container when opened from dust, or contaminate the liquid if traces of blood from a wound being treated are introduced by sloppy user technique. Once in the bottle, unless bound up by stabilizer, the metal ions cause continuously evolved oxygen but as catalysts are not themselves used up. Hydrogen peroxide for commerce is not stable on the shelf unless stabilized. Even highest purity semiconductor grade hydrogen peroxide has stabilizers added. Rather than having more impure hydrogen peroxide in Japan, count your self lucky that the labeling laws reveal what is in there without you having to search out the ingredients.

The folks in the US that think their store bought H2O2 is only that plus water are just not reading the label for the words stabilized and USP and what they mean. I cannot tell you that any particular formulation of H2O2 in Japan is fit for your use. But here in the US the stabilizers are not required to be itemized on the label but most assuredly are there. United States users are running uncontrolled experiments if they buy drugstore brand labels that might have several different suppliers of the same shelf product using different unlisted additives (even if present in just trace amounts). Perhaps you should experiment on some less valuable plastics first to develop some confidence in the chemicals available to you.

Perhaps my "hide the truth" description of the above could be considered "excessive emphasis" by some, I used those words based on what I personally felt after I read the above (observe the keywords "biased" and "uncontrolled experiments" and "not required...on the label" etc.) While one could now argue that "stabilizers are in too small an amount to be significant," I didn't always know that, I am not a chemist, and I posted in this thread to learn as much as possible prior to spending any money, time or dipping my beloved plastics "into the unknown." But as of now, I feel confident that Japanese Oxydol is pretty much the same thing as what you get when you purchase 3% H202 at drug stores in the US.

And just for the record (for those of you reading this from Japan), perhaps it matters little, but I have found two common types of 3% h202 Oxydol, which varies by price considerably, which in turn is based on the difference of one single "stabilizer" ingredient:

Oxydol with Phenacetin & Ethanol: 500ml@¥290EA

Oxydol with Phenacetin & Phosphoric acid: 500ml@¥567EA

(Amounts above are approx. US$2.77 and US$5.67 respectively, Japanese 5% consumption tax included.)

I don't know which is "better" for our de-yellowing application. But since most people are agreed that both Ethanol and Phosphoric acid are "too small to be significant 'stabilizers'" then it is clear that I will be using the lower cost version of Oxydol in my de-yellowing work.

 

[Mac128]

(Amounts above are approx. US$2.77 and US$5.67 respectively, Japanese 5% consumption tax included.)

This will really make you unhappy: I went to Target today and their 1 liter bottle of H202 sells for US $.99, plus .08 cents sales tax. Also, it says right on the bottle, 3% Hydrogen peroxide (stabilized), though it doesn't go into the details. Given your little birdy's input, it gives me some pause for concern in that it is generally applied directly into an open wound and thus the bloodstream. More concern than it may harm a yellowed case. However, I cannot fathom how the FDA would actually knowingly allow something toxically reactive into such a product. I suspect it is much like the fact that they found measurable elements of pharmaceutical drugs in LA's drinking water, but the concentrations are no where near an amount that could affect anyone during their lifetime (you'd have to drink a swimming pool's worth of water everyday for it to have any effect). Thanks for the info though!

 

[Mac128]

I have one M0001W and one M0001E. The purchases of these different model numbers was purposeful, and I'd like to complete the collection of the first three models with a 128K M0001 model - maybe adde a Plus to mess around with programs that require more memory. To be honest, I get the most enjoyment out of getting them up and running - and then restoring them. Unlike my first two purchases, any additions will likely be broken units.

It may not be that easy to stop at three. LOL I didn't! I decided to limit it to just the M0001s, then I bought a Colour Classic and decided to expand it to one of every major compact. Then, all their sub-variations, then just 68000 processors ... who knows where this compulsion will take me. Technically, though in addition to the M0001, M0001W & M0001E, there are some other models with exterior differences however identical the internals are which you will need to add to your collection. In particular, there is the M0001 "revised" model with a "Macintosh 128K" badge. There is also an M0001ED which comes in both beige or Platinum, sometimes labeled "Macintosh ED" on the front of a Plus front bezel, though the internals are very much a 512Ke. I would definitely advise having a Plus M0001A as it is the only compact with SCSI that also natively runs software which still officially supports the 128K. Keep 'em all beige and that limits you to just two more models, the Mac Plus and "Macintosh Plus ED". FYI, the Plus can be configured with only 512K, essentially making it a 512Ke with SCSI. I have a Dove SCSI board for my 512Ke which I have been meaning to repair and use – and in particular, try it with a 128Ke. That's only 7 models ... I'm sure you won't have any trouble explaining that ... :beige:

 

[JDW]

First of all, and sorry I am too lazy/upset to search on this site if it has already been mentioned, but I am really pissed off I cannot click on links in email updates anymore and jump directly to threads via Safari 3.1.2 (on either my Mac at work or my Mac at home). I have to use stupidly slow FireFox 3 now. Because Safari forces me to login every time now-- but more than that, it keeps asking me to login over and over! It's a never ending loop for freaking logins! I am infuriated! Ack! (So I must write this post on Firefox now.)

Rant over... >

Mac128, I checked with a friend who works at a hair salon, I checked with a dentist friend, and I checked with a pharmacist friend here in Japan. All told me the same exact story. You have to have a stupid license to get a hold of H202 in any concentration above 3% in Japan. Don't ask me why because I will then ask you why I have to pay $15 for a cantelope melon and why I have to pay US$2,000 to get a silly driver's license here. It's the nature of Japan. And if they supply me with H202, they could get into big trouble, about the same as if they sold me hardcore drugs. Seriously. Sometimes the Japanese people (the ones who make the laws anyway) can be overbearing in the extreme.

So Oxydol is all we retro computing lovers here have access to, and the variations I've seen are shown above in my previous post. This matters little to you folks from outside Japan, but perhaps it will be helpful to others like me who do live in the land of the rising sun.

UPDATE:

First of all, many thanks to the little bird who just PM'd me about deleting my 68kmla cookies to get Safari working with this site again!

Next, my wife was planning to go shopping today so I asked her to keep an eye out for the lower cost version of Oxydol. She telephoned me a few moments ago to report that out of the 3 stores she went to, they all carry only the higher cost 500ml bottle, which is almost US$6! I can still get the ¥290/bottle stuff over the internet, but there are shipping charges that go along with that, as well as a minimum order on some sites that sell it. A few days ago, I wrote to FBC-USA (the only place I can get a can of chili beans in Japan, for crying out loud) because the US grade 3% H202 is an item they didn't carry. However, they wrote me back to see that because of my request they would carry it. The only catch is that I can only import 1 bottle each time, and one 8oz(240ml) bottle will cost me US$3.58 ("Western Family" brand).

All said, H202 use is an expensive proposition in Japan. :'(

 

[lumpydog]

JDW:

Interesting stuff - I went to look at the bottle that my H202 came in. It does say the following:

1) "Topical Solution USP"

2) Where the percentage of Hydrogen Peroxide is diclosed, it is followed by "(Stabilized)"

Despite my lack of knowledge with regard to how to read/interpret labels on H202 bottles, the stuff I used worked just fine and did not attack or degrade the plastics in any way that I can see.

I do agree that you should experiment with plastics that are less valuable to you... I started with my mouse - knowing I could repleace it fairly cheaply on eBay.

Also - I think it was you that asked the question "When will we start to see H202 cleaned Macs show up on eBay?". This one appears to have been cleaned in H202 - I'd guess it was then wiped down with Armorall - looks greasy/slick/wet. http://cgi.ebay.com/1984-1st-Macintosh-Model-M0001-128K-All-Original-NICE_W0QQitemZ360136485853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item360136485853&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308

You can tell from the serial number label - my H202 treated macs show the same discolored halo around the edges of the serial number sticker where the liquid seaped in at the edges.

 

[Mac128]

Also - I think it was you that asked the question "When will we start to see H202 cleaned Macs show up on eBay?". This one appears to have been cleaned in H202 - I'd guess it was then wiped down with Armorall - looks greasy/slick/wet....You can tell from the serial number label - my H202 treated macs show the same discolored halo around the edges of the serial number sticker where the liquid seaped in at the edges.

Be careful, that's Danapplemacman you are accusing of not properly disclosing his potentially harmful restoration techniques. You could get this whole thread pulled from this site :beige: I think it was equill or Charliman who suggested not disclosing that kind of restoration in an eBay auction would not be exactly above-board and I wholeheartedly agree – not that it would phase a potential buyer, but truly none of us know the long-term affects of this kind of treatment and a prospective buyer deserves to know. In most case I would imagine the buyer would pay a premium to have the "treatment" performed on a collectable, so as not to have to do it themselves.

I will tell you I have several 128/512 cases that have never touched an H202 bath with that same discoloration around the label. However, since Dan is an avid lurker of our forum (I'm kidding, I have no idea), I would agree they do appear to have been enhanced with some kind of product, whether Armor All, or something as I agree it has a wet look which the original Macs never had. Nor did they under the bright studio lights of the ads and video. If he did use H202, he would have done well to leave the space bar in a bit longer. But this is pure speculation, so Dan if you are reading, or any of your prospective buyers, this is by no means a liable against you, but speculation which only compliments your restoration practices, if not simply a trick of the camera. On the other hand, perhaps he used JDW's 6-dollar a bottle Japanese H202, at least in part explaining that $999.84 price-tag. :beige: Considering this completed auction for a complete working 128K in its original box with software, accessories and manuals for a whopping $400, regardless of condition, I wish Dan good luck.

 

[lumpydog]

Be careful, that's Danapplemacman you are accusing of not properly disclosing his potentially harmful restoration techniques.

Mac128: Duly noted and I should have mentioned that my comment on Dan's eBay auction was only speculation - primarily because that is one seriously clean Mac!

Lumpy

P.S. You'll notice in my pictures that I was not able to fully rid the space bar of its discoloration - as mentioned, the harder plastic does not let go of its yellow color as easily as the rest of the Mac plastics. Also - the 303 Protectant does not leave the case looking glossy like that..