How to make old QuickTime movies on a modern Mac

[nglevin]

Looks like an issue with gamma. I was going to spitball that it might be related to how the default gamma changed from 1.8 to 2.2 in Snow Leopard and all versions of Mac OS X after that...

...except it might also be an issue with the default QuickTime Pro settings, as suggested here; https://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2008/06/fix-quicktime-gamma-shift/

At this point it's mostly playing around with QuickTime settings to see what works.

There was also probably some compression applied before, which would explain the jump in data rate that you're seeing now. Although adding compression over an already compressed, decoded video will just make the video look worse. It might be best not to play with that much, if you care about the quality.

 

[JDW]

Looks like an issue with gamma... [SIZE=1.4rem]it might also be an issue with the default QuickTime Pro settings, as suggested here; [/SIZE]https://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2008/06/fix-quicktime-gamma-shift/

Your link proposes this as a solution:

SOLUTION: After rendering into a QuickTime/h.264 file, open it up in QuickTime and select “Show Movie Properties.” Highlight the video track then click on the “Visual Settings” tab. Towards the bottom left you should see “Transparency” with a drop-down box next to it. Select “Blend” from the menu then move the “Transparency Level” slider to 100%. Choose “Straight Alpha” from the same drop-down and close the properties window and finally “Save.”

But I can confirm it is no solution in High Sierra when dealing with the CINEPAK codec.  It just makes the video turn white!

However...

I just trying saving the movie in QT7.6.x on my MacOS 10.4 Tiger G4 Cube and the resulting file is perfect, with no Gamma shift! The other benefit is that the data rate matches what I tell it!  So unless I can fix those problems on my 5K iMac, I will just need to use my G4 Cube to do the video creation.

Also, I opened one of the files I created on my 5K iMac in QT7.6 on my G4 Cube and the gamma is wrong there too, which proves that the gamma shift is burned into the file when using High Sierra (or perhaps another modern version of MacOS).

 

[omidimo]

A novel solution is to setup an OS X 10.5 VM (sadly only Server is supported) in VMWare Fusion and use that off your iMac 5K as it has the older version of QuickTime. 

 

[JDW]

A novel solution is to setup an OS X 10.5 VM...

It's not a solution for me.  I want to create videos that playback on my SE/30 which has a Micro Xceed Grayscale adapter and can display 256 grays on the internal CRT.  I intend to make a YouTube video about that, and also show how video plays back on an external VGA display (which my video card also supports).

Now, as to the codec, I think I will go with Sorenson.  I got that enabled on my 5K iMac in QuickTime 7.6.x.  It's version 2 of the Sorenson codec, which is backward compatible with the version 1 Sorenson codec in QuickTime 3 (in System 7.5.5).  The videos converted with Sorenson codec have even richer blacks than the original and no gamma shift problems at all.  Bitrate is close to what I set it to be too.

 

[Cory5412]

I would proceed with Cinepak before switching to Sorenson, especially given that you only have output for a newer version of that codec.

The other thing you'll need to consider is that an SE/30 only has so much SCSI bandwidth and compute power and you may need to lower the frame-rate, audio quality, and picture size of your video in order to achieve "satisfactory" video playback on that machine. I suspect the nearly 3 megabits per second of the video in your screenshot isn't going to play well on an SE/30. Perhaps if you allocated as much of your RAM as possible to QuickTime it would load the file into RAM and that might be fast enough?

150 or 300 kilobits per second might be good targets since that's approximately what 1x and 2x CD-ROM drives could provide in the early '90s, and that was the most common video source at the time.

If this isn't something you intend/need to be ablet o do on a regular basis, it sounds like just making the files on your G4 is probably the best solution for the moment.

The other-other thing I'd do is test with your SE/30 and see which video looks better on its display. It could be the "wrong" gamma looks better on the SE/30's display, which in your case as you mentioned is grayscale and 256 colors. (reducing the video's bit depth to 8 should help with the data rate as well.)

 

[JDW]

Thank you for the advice, Cory.

What I've decided to do is start with some test files, and what better video than the 1984 commercial.  I found a 1080p version online (probably not true 1080p but better than most other versions I could find).  I edited it in FCPX to be 1440x1080 so it's proportions would match my target resolution of 320x240, for use with the SE/30.  I then sent that out to Compressor, where I changed the resolution to 320x240 and set all the video and audio parameters.  I used the Sorenson codec and outputting various bitrate versions, the highest being 1800kilobits/sec and the lowest being 300kbps (which starts to look a bit shoddy).  

My intention is now to move the 1440x1080 video to my G4 Cube and use QuickTime 7.6.x to Export "Cinepak" codec versions at various bitrates.  Then when that is done, I will bring all those videos over to my SE/30's SCSI HDD (a real spinning platter drive, not CF card or SD) and see how they play in grayscale on the internal CRT, and then I'll do a test on an external VGA color display, assuming the DB-15 to VGA adapter I ordered from Amazon (which has no DIP switches) will work.  If it doesn't work, I have to go through the trouble and expense of getting the DIP SW version adapter shipped to me via a family member in the US (since I'm in Japan).  All said, it should be an interesting test, and I'll be sure to report my findings here.  Hopefully the information will benefit others who follow along in my footsteps.

Thanks again.

 

[JDW]

I conducted a first round of tests on my SE/30 with stock motherboard/16MHzCPU and stock ROM SIMM, with 32MB RAM.  My tests were done in the QuickTime 3 Player (which supports the Sorenson codec), using the 1984 commercial at various sizes and bitrates:

1. 1984_320x240_15fps_150kbps_Cinepak: no playback issues in B&W or 256 grays on internal CRT (noticeable compression artifacts)
   
2. 1984_320x240_15fps_300kbps_Cinepak: no playback issues in B&W or 256 grays on internal CRT (fewer compression artifacts)
   
3. 1984_320x240_15fps_600kbps_Cinepak: no playback issues in B&W or 256 grays on internal CRT (compression artifacts difficult to notice)
   
4. 1984_320x240_15fps_1125kbps_Cinepak: maybe some dropped frames, but not choppy at all (compression artifacts a non-issue)
   
5. 1984_320x240_24fps_1800kbps_Cinepak: some dropped frames but still smooth playback (compression artifacts a non-issue)
   
6. 1984_512x342_15fps_600kbps_Cinepak: maybe some dropped frames, but not choppy at all (compression artifacts difficult to notice)
   
7. 1984_320x240_15fps_150kbps_Sorenson: hellacious dropped frames making it totally unviewable, but compression artifacts well controlled
   

I still have more testing to do on my 50MHz 68030 accelerator, and I want to test on an external color VGA display attached to my Xceed PDS video card, but the above test results are a pretty good indicator of what to expect on an SE/30.  

If anyone wants a copy of the videos I made for testing on your own vintage Macs just Message me.  You will need to use File Buddy on your vintage Mac to change the file Type and Creator to:

Type: MooV

Creator: TVOD

 

[omidimo]

Oh Nice work!

I was wondering if Sorenson was even 68k friendly, but you have proven, it was probably optimized for PPC.

How long is the actual video you plan to use on the SE/30?

 

[JDW]

How long is the actual video you plan to use on the SE/30?

The videos I made (as mentioned in my previous post) are all based on Apple's 1984 commercial.  I just resized that one video and chose different bitrates and frame rates and codecs.  That video is 60 seconds long.  I did not vary the length of the video in my tests.  If you want some or all the files I made for your own testing, just Message me.

 

[omidimo]

Must have had a brain-toot and had imagined a far more elaborate project of a custom video. I look forward to seeing what the conversions you did will look like. 

A very, very long time ago, I had an Apple QuickTime sampler CD of some sort that had the 1984 video. albeit a small 240x160 sized one at best. I was too young to understand the importance of that, but it was a very early demo of the tech, must have been from 1992 or 1993.  

 

[JDW]

If I had the Sorenson 2 Developer Edition codec, I could save videos with VBR and other tweaks that might make a difference.  From what I understand, that came with Media Cleaner Pro 1.x & 2.x by Terran (later Media 100).  Those old apps are no longer available, nor can I find them on the common abandonware sites.  If the Sorenson 2 Standard codec can work even on a 5k iMac running High Sierra, I don't see why the developer edition too would not work, although I am not sure how it would be installed.  If someone has an old copy of that, please message me.

For now it seems the Cinepak codec is our best option for video on the SE/30 and similarly powered vintage Macs.

 

[Macbuk]

As in the post quoted, where i tested cinepak in a IIci, i used Mpegstreamclip to encode my test samples. It does not require a bridge machine if you have a modern PC. There is also a mac version up to Mountain Lion. It has Cinepak, Sorenson, Apple video , Mjpeg and a bunch of legacy codecs.



Sympleplayer 1.0 helps to play smoothly circa 2000 kbs cbr video samples on a IIci/cache. Instead I have had no luck using MP 2.5 in full screen playback with 25-30 fps samples neither in IIci nor in IIfx

'm really curious about the SE30!

I'll wait your videos as i ve an SE30 ( the one i resuscitated in 2008 thanks to this forum ) with RasterOps 264/30 deeply buried in a box.

 

[JDW]

...i used Mpegstreamclip to encode my test samples. It does not require a bridge machine if you have a modern PC. There is also a mac version up to Mountain Lion. It has Cinepak, Sorenson, Apple video , Mjpeg and a bunch of legacy codecs.

Does it offer the Developer Edition of the Sorenson codec?  

QuickTime 7.6 offers the standard edition of Sorenson 2, which means you can click File > Export > Movie to QuickTime Move > Options... > Video Settings... > Options... and see the Sorenson settings  but you cannot change those settings.  The Developer Edition of Sorenson (which from what I understand came with Media Cleaner) will allow you to change those settings, including enable VBR, which makes a big difference.  That's why I'm on the lookout for that edition of the Sorenson codec, and hopefully it can be used on modern iMacs like the built-in Sorenson 2 standard codec.  For now, I created my Sorenson version videos with only the basic settings mentioned in my previous posts.

I will message you with the video samples.

 

[omidimo]

Checked out the samples; Cinepak was not as bad as I remembered it, and it played well across the few Macs I tried them on. the smaller Sorenson files were questionable. 

I wish I had kept a copy the boxed Sorenson package or Media Cleaner Pro that was bought for the Lab I worked for in college, but once they moved over to Final Cut Pro, all the old software was disposed of with extreme prejudice.  :?:

Someone has to have a copy of Media Cleaner Pro somewhere, it was very prevalent when it came out. 

 

[JDW]

...the smaller Sorenson files were questionable. 

Someone has to have a copy of Media Cleaner Pro somewhere, it was very prevalent when it came out. 

"Questionable" in terms of dropped frames, right?  My Sorenson videos are not playable on my SE/30 because the 68030 simply isn't fast enough to decode Sorenson, at least, not without VBR, which again is why I want to try Sorenson 2 Developer Edition.

I checked MacintoshGarden and MacintoshRepository but Media Clean is not there.  Surely there must be at least one among us who hasn't disposed of software to make room for Final Cut Pro!   :huh:

 

[omidimo]

"Questionable" in terms of dropped frames, right?

Yes, one would think Since Sorenson would be vastly superior to Cinepak (the dinosaur of codecs!), but alas nope.

The things we got rid of, with no care in the world.  8-o

I wonder if Compressor 1.0 is any good, but cant seem to find that either... yet. 

 

[Macbuk]

Does it offer the Developer Edition of the Sorenson codec?  

QuickTime 7.6 offers the standard edition of Sorenson 2, which means you can click File > Export > Movie to QuickTime Move > Options... > Video Settings... > Options... and see the Sorenson settings  but you cannot change those settings.  The Developer Edition of Sorenson (which from what I understand came with Media Cleaner) will allow you to change those settings, including enable VBR, which makes a big difference.  That's why I'm on the lookout for that edition of the Sorenson codec, and hopefully it can be used on modern iMacs like the built-in Sorenson 2 standard codec.  For now, I created my Sorenson version videos with only the basic settings mentioned in my previous posts.

I will message you with the video samples.

Thanks for the files you sent. I'll try them ASAP. Unfortunately my dialog with System 7 Is mediated by TransMac version 10 (x86) that allows me to burn HFS CD 650 mb on a modern x86 enviroment.  

Apparently MpegstreamClip 1.2 has two Sorenson codecs , 2.11 basic edition and 3.20. It seems to allow the users to limit datarate but i've no experience yet.

Here a snapshot of the codecs and the functions.

 

 

[Macbuk]

I ve now encoded one sample (source file is fHD 25 seconds) using both cinepak and sorenson 2.0 codec (provided by Mpegstreamclip).

The target setting for both codecs Is 320x240, quality 100, with an imposed datarate limit of 2000kbps.

Sorenson output is 9.3 mb and Cinepak is 8.4 mb.

Not a big difference in size but a what an impressive difference in quality (reading them with QT 7.0 on x86). 

I suspect that the sorenson-encoded one, despite being small, will be unplayable even with my 33 mhz Daystar turbo 40-IIci. I will try.  :-(

Here Is a snap of both samples. Sorenson on the left, cvid on the right.

 

[nglevin]

I wonder if Compressor 1.0 is any good, but cant seem to find that either... yet. 

Final Cut Pro 4 isn't unreasonable on the second hand market. Like old copies of Logic (Pro), it turns up every once in awhile.

Someone has to have a copy of Media Cleaner Pro somewhere

I've seen a boxed copy of HyperCard 2.3.5 that originally came bundled with Media Cleaner and Myst, when Director was the prevailing multimedia tool. Probably the best way to find it is to grab it from a software bundle somewhere.

Though I'm not sure you will want to spend your limited Mac cycles on batch processing video. It's a job that a multicore (anything) will be much better at.

 

[Cory5412]

I intend to put Final Cut Studio 2 on my Mac Pro in the near future, I'll see if it can export to any of these older formats. That might be a good compromise between horsepower (esp. since FCS2 can run on up to Sierra, to a certain extent), automation and file compatibility. 

I believe I've seen a version of Media Cleaner with some old Final Cut media as well, but I'll need to look.