Help installing Mac OS 8.1 on my Mac SE/30

wildstar1063

Active member
Today I was going to try to install macOS 8.1 on my SE/30, I installed the "wish I were"
Control panel and extension and following some directions I found chose Quadra 700
Then rebooted, but when I start the 8.1 installer it still gives me the message that the installer
can't be run on this Mac. I have 65 megs of ram and the memory control panel is set to 32 bit
addressing in 7.1. the plan is to do a full install, not an update on a separate hard drive image
set up on my BlueSCSI, not over the existing 7.1 image. I have the purple ROM upgraded ROM
SIMM being sold by a fellow from France on eBay.

Does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong here?

Thanks

Chuck E.
 
Last edited:

Mk.558

Well-known member
I used gamba's instructions and did fine. An easier approach is to simply do a normal install on a VM like Basilisk II, perform any updates, and then edit the System file with ResEdit while still on the VM. Then copy the whole thing out over a network connection.

You will find that Mac OS 8.1 will be insufferably slow on a SE/30. It's slow even on my IIci, and I would not recommend it to anybody. All the advantages of 8.1 are kind of moot on a Compact, and the speed hit is severe. Even 7.6.1 is a bit sluggish sometimes on a IIci, and 8.0+ is really meant for a fast 68040 or ideally PowerPC CPU.
 

wildstar1063

Active member
I have read about the speed hit from using 8.1, but I've also seen some people write that
The SE/30 was still quite usable with 8.1. So I'd like to try it for myself. I just can't figure out why
The eight point one installer won't start with the "wish I were" control panel and extension
Showing the Quadra 700. When I reboot and look at "About This Mac", that's also what it
shows there.
At some point, I want to upgrade the processor to an 040 and get one of those
Grayscale cards that I see are being reproduced, then maybe the speed hit
won't be so bad. What would be cool is if someone could make a card with
The 040, the grayscale, and an Ethernet adapter combined into the same card.
It would negate having to stack all of those cards together inside the SE/30

I'm actually surprised that no one ever made a PPC card for the SE/30, it seemed like it was
A fairly popular computer.

I'm not a super purist about processor upgrades, what I'd really like to see is someone make a
modern FPGA processor upgrade something like Gunnar von Boehn's 68080 processor for
the Vampire cards and the standalone. I have the Vampire Standalone, and it's so amazing, I haven't
Turned on my Amiga 3000 tower, in a year and a half.

Chuck E.
 

Mk.558

Well-known member
If they say it was quite usable it was because they had an accelerator in it, and probably a Daystar PowerCache at that too, which offers more performance over a basic accelerator. It was a popular computer and still is, but if you know where we can get Daystar Turbo 601 cards then maybe we can do some work on replicating them :)

Even if you had a PPC CPU on board you'll have to deal with the comparatively slow bus. It just won't be able to keep up with memory accesses and will be throttled by itself. Faster machines like the IIci had faster memory busses and could benefit from it more.

68040 cards have been reproduced, and like the greyscale card they are expensive because of the development time and often needing to source outdated, out of production, obsolete components. Then you will have to contend with issues that you get from jumping a processor generation.

Again all I can refer you to is Gamba's page. I did use Wish I were at first (and tried Born Again) but honestly taking a plain virgin install inside a VM and editing it, then copying it out is the easiest approach.
 

wildstar1063

Active member
If they say it was quite usable it was because they had an accelerator in it, and probably a Daystar PowerCache at that too, which offers more performance over a basic accelerator. It was a popular computer and still is, but if you know where we can get Daystar Turbo 601 cards then maybe we can do some work on replicating them :)

Even if you had a PPC CPU on board you'll have to deal with the comparatively slow bus. It just won't be able to keep up with memory accesses and will be throttled by itself. Faster machines like the IIci had faster memory busses and could benefit from it more.

68040 cards have been reproduced, and like the greyscale card they are expensive because of the development time and often needing to source outdated, out of production, obsolete components. Then you will have to contend with issues that you get from jumping a processor generation.

Again all I can refer you to is Gamba's page. I did use Wish I were at first (and tried Born Again) but honestly taking a plain virgin install inside a VM and editing it, then copying it out is the easiest approach.
I can give that a try, I have Basilisk II installed on my Mac studio, I use it to copy files back-and-forth between the Mac studio
Add my BlueSCSI drive images. What options should I choose in the Basilisk II GUI? There are only two Mac types available,
The Quadra 900 and the Mac IIci, there are a bunch of different types of processors available. I would guess I would choose the Mac IIci
and the 68030 processor with FPU, and I have a whole bunch of different Mac ROM images available.

Chuck E.
 

zigzagjoe

Well-known member
FWIW though the old Gamba instructions do work just fine for 8.1, I recommend saving copies of your images at each step however just in case something goes awry. I think preparing it in Basilisk pretending to be an IIci should also work just fine.

On performance though I concur with @Mk.558. On my accelerated SE/30 (45mhz 68040) with accelerated graphics, it still slow in 8.1. It is usable, but it's not pleasant. With the stock SE/30 CPU, 8.1 may as well be unusable. Even a Quadra 650 at 40mhz - one of the fastest 68k macs - it's not great. It's clear that apple's priorities were shifting rapidly after the introduction of the PPC machines rather understandably as Moore's Law was ruthless back then.

On the topic of combo cards, I have flirted with the idea of building a combination Carrera+SEthernet+30Video GS card; I'd dubbed the concept the Trifecta card. However, as @Mk.558 pointed out, grayscale cards and 68040 accelerators regardless of design are already expensive to source, build, and test to the point where they are not broadly attractive products. While there's an undeniable appeal in a combo card, it would 100% be a halo product easily costing over $1K if I were to take the approach of simply jamming together 3 independent designs. Fun idea, but inefficient due to lack of integration, and interest is going to be very, very limited. It's also a little dull in that there's no further ability to customize your system, which in my opinion accounts for much of the continued appeal and popularity of the SE/30. I'd rather drive costs down on my existing designs to make them more accessible, or build more new things.

The existing vintage 040 upgrades were already at the point of diminishing returns with the SE/30; it has a slow, rudimentary DRAM controller and a slow bus, and all the cache in the world can't save you when the problem is pushing pixels as fast as possible to a framebuffer or reading from a disk all which live on a 16mhz bus. To really improve performance over vintage designs, you'd be looking at making a (scratch designed) accelerator with onboard synchronous DRAM, ROM, and framebuffer at a minimum. At that point you're basically halfway to having built a Quadra, having rendered obsolete 2/3s of the original logic board. However, all your IO is still married to the slow parts which make you a SE/30: a slow SCSI controller without DMA, sound and floppy you need to massively slow down any time you talk to if you want them to work... It's a bit like sticking a V8 into a lawnmower.

All that said, I personally think there is some appeal in making a "modern" Mac logic board architecture leveraging cost-effective modern components in a way that remainds indelibly both vintage computing and a Mac without invalidating the original design in favor of a 100% FPGA or a PiStorm approach.
 

wildstar1063

Active member
FWIW though the old Gamba instructions do work just fine for 8.1, I recommend saving copies of your images at each step however just in case something goes awry. I think preparing it in Basilisk pretending to be an IIci should also work just fine.

On performance though I concur with @Mk.558. On my accelerated SE/30 (45mhz 68040) with accelerated graphics, it still slow in 8.1. It is usable, but it's not pleasant. With the stock SE/30 CPU, 8.1 may as well be unusable. Even a Quadra 650 at 40mhz - one of the fastest 68k macs - it's not great. It's clear that apple's priorities were shifting rapidly after the introduction of the PPC machines rather understandably as Moore's Law was ruthless back then.

On the topic of combo cards, I have flirted with the idea of building a combination Carrera+SEthernet+30Video GS card; I'd dubbed the concept the Trifecta card. However, as @Mk.558 pointed out, grayscale cards and 68040 accelerators regardless of design are already expensive to source, build, and test to the point where they are not broadly attractive products. While there's an undeniable appeal in a combo card, it would 100% be a halo product easily costing over $1K if I were to take the approach of simply jamming together 3 independent designs. Fun idea, but inefficient due to lack of integration, and interest is going to be very, very limited. It's also a little dull in that there's no further ability to customize your system, which in my opinion accounts for much of the continued appeal and popularity of the SE/30. I'd rather drive costs down on my existing designs to make them more accessible, or build more new things.

The existing vintage 040 upgrades were already at the point of diminishing returns with the SE/30; it has a slow, rudimentary DRAM controller and a slow bus, and all the cache in the world can't save you when the problem is pushing pixels as fast as possible to a framebuffer or reading from a disk all which live on a 16mhz bus. To really improve performance over vintage designs, you'd be looking at making a (scratch designed) accelerator with onboard synchronous DRAM, ROM, and framebuffer at a minimum. At that point you're basically halfway to having built a Quadra, having rendered obsolete 2/3s of the original logic board. However, all your IO is still married to the slow parts which make you a SE/30: a slow SCSI controller without DMA, sound and floppy you need to massively slow down any time you talk to if you want them to work... It's a bit like sticking a V8 into a lawnmower.

All that said, I personally think there is some appeal in making a "modern" Mac logic board architecture leveraging cost-effective modern components in a way that remainds indelibly both vintage computing and a Mac without invalidating the original design in favor of a 100% FPGA or a PiStorm approach.
Never Say never ;-)
1727045624260.png
 

Mk.558

Well-known member
I would recommend a Quadra 900 with 8.1. Basilisk II doesn't really have speed problems like a real mac does but it can have its own issues. You'll probably want some way to unpack/repack, binhex/macbinary things, but you can use anything you want really. You could pack it up and then FTP it if you don't have a TAP bridge for appletalk.
 

wildstar1063

Active member
I would recommend a Quadra 900 with 8.1. Basilisk II doesn't really have speed problems like a real mac does but it can have its own issues. You'll probably want some way to unpack/repack, binhex/macbinary things, but you can use anything you want really. You could pack it up and then FTP it if you don't have a TAP bridge for appletalk.
I've tried both there Quadri 900 and the Mac IIci with Basilisk II, what I can't figure out is how to get the Mac OS 8.1 CD iso
to mount in Basilisk, with my BlueSCSI I just put it in there as "CD3 Mac OS 8.1.iso" and it mounts, but if I try to load it from the
Basilisk II GUI, I point it at the ISO, and it puts it in there as a drive under the volumes tab, but it says "not found" and never loads
On the desktop. I'm not sure what is going on.
 

Mk.558

Well-known member
You'll find that the Legacy Recovery CD is an invaluable CD with a wide range of 68K and PPC system software, and comes as a 7.6.1 bootable CD. It'll probably work better than 8.1 directly off the CD.

You could also search for ready made disk images ready to use in an emulator off Savage Taylor's website.
 

wildstar1063

Active member
Will the Legacy Recovery CD boot at all without editing the system files for the SE/30 with
An upgraded 32 bit clean ROM? I would think you just be able to mount it using BlueSCSI
and maybe run an Installer from it, but if I try to install 8.1 aren't I just going to run into the
same problem I had with the eight point one install CD where the installer won't load at all it
just tells me that it can't run on this Mac, and gives me an OK button to quit, even though I have
Wish-I-were installed and set to the Quadra 700 recommended in the Gamba instructions.

It would be nice if someone simply had some pre-edited versions of the installed 7.5.5 and
8.0 and 8.1 versions of macOS pre-installed on a .hda image for the Mac SE/30 people with
32 bit clean ROMS

Chuck E.
 

AndyMc1280

Well-known member
Already done. HDA file so drop on Bluescsi


Not mine but its what I use. Works on a standard SE30. I mooed my accelerator so its away getting fettled and fixed (I hope . Blue SCSI Image. I've just booted it so it works. It has 7.53 on it but you can easily update that.

Download currently working.
 

wildstar1063

Active member
Already done. HDA file so drop on Bluescsi


Not mine but its what I use. Works on a standard SE30. I mooed my accelerator so its away getting fettled and fixed (I hope . Blue SCSI Image. I've just booted it so it works. It has 7.53 on it but you can easily update that.

Download currently working.
Very good, I got it to download and stuck it on my micro SD card and booted from the external BlueSCSI.
It booted up just fine in 8.1 and I moved the 7.3 system file to a different drive image and was able to boot from it.
Are all the other folders on that image from the eight point one install, or is it all mixed up between the 7.3 and 8.1?
Don't get me wrong it's all working, but I was kind of hoping for clean install images. Maybe I can use these though to create clean installs of my own.
Thanks
Chuck E.
 

AndyMc1280

Well-known member
Very good, I got it to download and stuck it on my micro SD card and booted from the external BlueSCSI.
It booted up just fine in 8.1 and I moved the 7.3 system file to a different drive image and was able to boot from it.
Are all the other folders on that image from the eight point one install, or is it all mixed up between the 7.3 and 8.1?
Don't get me wrong it's all working, but I was kind of hoping for clean install images. Maybe I can use these though to create clean installs of my own.
Thanks
Chuck E.

For Clean installs the recovery CD is what you want.

Do you have an emulator setup on either mac or pc ? (SE 30's are slow installers lol)

breifly:

Create blank image
Boot above 7.5/8.1 image in emulator
Open CD iso in emulated mac
open blank image and do format/install from legacy cd
Learn how to Patch 8.0/8.1 for 030 from external sites - BMOW: https://www.bigmessowires.com/mac-se30-with-upgraded-rom/
the patch is at (because the bmow link to the file is moo): https://vintageapple.org/gamba2/download/os8-030patch.sit.hqx
boot your new image in emulator
shove on Blue scsi

hopefully, shout "Rah" when it all works or something else if not 🤪
 

mikes-macs

Well-known member
Just out of curiosity are you running the Mac OS 8.1 installer without installing Mac OS 8.0 first?

Step 6 in those instructions are
Launch the 8.0 Installer and select Installer options "Clean Install" and "Easy Install".
NOTE: On the Mac OS 8.1 CD, the OS 8.0 Installer is located at
Full Install Pieces-->Software Installers-->System Software-->Mac OS 8-->.
 

Mk.558

Well-known member
Normally you have to install 8.0 first then the 8.1 updater. Installs a lot of fat and bloat normally.
 
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