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Finally a IIfx!

uniserver

Well-known member
my buddy zackl is hookin me up.

I guess he found a whole box of II and IIfx boards and a Bag o ram/rom's in a Barn sale!!! :)

IIfxAd1.jpg.31f9057a7d9348669da0a02355b5e664.jpg


(pretty much the last mac board I needed for my collection)

I like having fully working boards for comparisons, when troubleshooting.

introduced 1990.03.19 at $9,900; discontinued 1992.04.15

code names: F-16, F-19, Stealth, Blackbird, Zone 5, Four Square, IIxi, Weed Whacker

CPU: 40 MHz 68030

FPU: 40 MHz 68882

the most bad to the bone machine sold in 1990:

Macintosh Classic

8 MHz 68000

Macintosh IIsi

20 MHz 68030

Macintosh IIfx

40 MHz 68030

Macintosh LC

16 MHz 68020

until 1993: with the 40mhz Quadra 840AV

 

Byrd

Well-known member
That's awesome uni ... eagerly awaits the time when you make your own IIfx RAM, both my hands go up :)

 

CC_333

Well-known member
Yeah, but you could actually assemble them into a working product. I think Trag only got as far as producing the PCBs and a few prototypes.

c

 

mac2geezer

Well-known member
I think Trag only got as far as producing the PCBs and a few prototypes.
Not true. I bought a set of four 16MB sticks from him several years ago and he told me once that he sold some on eBay for big dollars.

 

CC_333

Well-known member
Not true. I bought a set of four 16MB sticks from him several years ago and he told me once that he sold some on eBay for big dollars.
Ahh! My information is out of date or garbled, then.
I might just ask... My IIfx has 32 MB, so that's probably good enough.

But if it's financially feasible, why not?

c

 

Byrd

Well-known member
I reckon you could make a good deal of coin from IIfx owners on 68KMLA itself, not eBay, with homemade 16MB IIfx RAM SIMMS. I've only ever seen 1MB SIMMS for sale, and would love to max out my IIfx to 128MB one day, but seems unlikely. It's a shame, as the IIfx has a special place in many of our hearts, mine too, being the computer I got through high school with and university.

Our good friend trag I believe has a list of other projects "to do", and may take a long while to get around to IIfx RAM construction, so step right up any takers? :D

 

uniserver

Well-known member
:) i have some ideas actually, all of the sudden…

are the ram chips them selves unique? or is it just the way the SIMMS are wired?

 

Unknown_K

Well-known member
From my understanding a few sets sold for $200+ but then the price dropped to $50 a set which was not worth the effort to make (PCB boards were hand cut, chips hand soldered). There isn't a large market for IIfx RAM and most people (me anyway) feel 8x4MB (32MB) is perfect for a IIfx (which is what I have in both of my units).

30 pin 16MB SIMMs have a much larger market because they can be used in many machines.

 

trag

Well-known member
From my understanding a few sets sold for $200+ but then the price dropped to $50 a set which was not worth the effort to make (PCB boards were hand cut, chips hand soldered). There isn't a large market for IIfx RAM and most people (me anyway) feel 8x4MB (32MB) is perfect for a IIfx (which is what I have in both of my units).
At $50 per set of four, at the time, it was barely worth building them. That was pretty much my break-even point, assessing a ridiculously low value (like sub-minimum wage) on my time. On the other hand, I was unemployed at the time, so I had (something resembling) plenty of time, and not much money... And part of me felt that if I could provide folks here a nice IIfx upgrade at the lowest affordable (to me) price, that had some value too. We do have a sense of community here.

I offered them for a fixed price of $50 per set here in the Trading Post and on LEMSWAP List and only ever had one taker (IIRC; might have been two) at that price (thank you mac2geezer). Ah, here's a posting. Looks like I was selling them about when the board went down. This was probably the only post-crash posting.

http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1321&p=14468&hilit=IIfx#p14468

Simultaneously, I sold sets on Ebay. The very first set went for something like $270 dollars. And I did pretty well for a while but the price decayed. When it dropped below $50 per set (I think one set went below $30) on Ebay, I quit. At that point the money to assemble them wasn't worth it, and selling only one or two sets here over most of a year wasn't stroking my ego or sense of community very much. I don't remember how many sets total I sold, but it was in the neighborhood of 25.

I had enough circuit boards made for 50 sets total. However, with the sweet deals available from Sound Studios now, circuit boards are not really a problem today. At the time, I was only able to make them because I had a $500 off coupon from 4pcb.com (AKA Advanced Circuits). I had to do some hand sawing of circuit boards, because I snuck two designs onto my boards with the top edges of the SIMMs adjacent. So, when I received them, they needed sawing to separate the two SIMMs across their common top edge. That's why the top edge looks a little irregular in some photos. Hmmm, looks like I ordered the circuit boards on 9/1/2006.

End of businessy discussion, beginning of techy discussion.

Where to start?

How the IIfx SIMM is different.

The IIfx SIMM is really only different from standard SIMMs in two ways.

First, it has 64 pins instead of 30 pins.

One might be tempted to compare it to a 72 pin SIMM, because the number of pins is closer, but that would be misguided. The IIfx SIMM is an 8 bit SIMM. It provides or stores 8 bits of data per each read or write operation, respectively. So, it should be compared to other 8 bit SIMMs.

Second, the IIfx SIMM has separate Data-In and Data-Out pins for each bit. On other SIMMs there are simply Data pins, and data being written or data being read travels onto the SIMM through the same pin. The Data pins on conventional SIMMs are bi-directional, in and out. The IIfx SIMM has sixteen data pins, two for each of the eight bits of data it can store. For each bit, one pin is used for write data, and another pin is used for read data and they are kept separate. This is why there are more than 30 pins on the IIfx SIMM. It has twice as many Data pins. Of course, 40 pins would have done about as well as 64, but Apple was already using the 64 pin SIMM for ROM SIMMs so why not?

This works because older memory chips actually have separate Data-In and Data-Out pins. So the SIMM pins can be routed to the corresponding memory chip pins and life is good.

Apple did this because it made the Write path to memory RAM in the IIfx into a separate little culde sac of a bus. In operation, the 68030 puts a write operation on the address/data bus for the IIfx and the memory controller accepts it and immediately signals the 68030 that it is done. Then the 68030 goes off and continues performing other operations, such as IO. Meanwhile, the memory controller has the address in internal buffers and the write data is in a set of buffer chips in the write path to the RAM. And the memory controller does all the little RAS and CAS things which are necessary to get the data into the RAM, while the rest of the computer goes about its business.

This works, even though the Data-Out pins of the RAM are directly wired to the IIfx's data bus, because during the write operation, the RAM Data-Out pins are tri-stated. So they have no effect on the IIfx's data bus. And the Data-In pins are only connected to the buffers controlled by the memory controller, so that little segment of data roadway isn't affecting anyone else in the computer.

This buffered write feature is mentioned in either "TGTTMFH" or maybe in the Cards and Drivers book.

Okay, so that's pretty straight forward. Build a SIMM with the right number of pins. Don't wire the memory chip's Data-In and Data-Out pins together the way other types of SIMMs do. Run them separately to the their respective pins on the 64 pin SIMM. Get all the address and data and RAS and CAS and WE pins connected to the memory chips and in the right place on the SIMMs.

The fly in the ointment is that one needs 16M X 1 memory chips in order to build this type of SIMM. They're not exactly thick on the ground. The only source I could come up with was to desolder them from other SIMMs. The most common source is 16 MB, 30 pin SIMMs. However, for my purposes at the time, that would have ruined the project. It would have cost $30 - $40 just for the memory chips for a set of four IIfx SIMMs. With the PCBs coming in at about $10 per four, that would have put my cost above $50 just in materials, before any labor.

The other source is 72 pin SIMMs. Unfortunately, because 72 pin SIMMs are 32 bits wide, they are not commonly made with X 1 memory chips. That would require 32 memory chips per SIMM, which is too unwieldy.

However, the 128 MB 72 pin SIMM with parity has eight 16M X 1 memory chips on board to provide the parity. At first blush, this isn't very helpful. A single 128 MB 72 pin SIMM only has as many 16M X 1 chips as a single 30 pin 16M SIMM, and the 30 pinner is/was cheaper.

The punch line is that the 128 MB 72 pin SIMM also carries sixteen 16M X 4 memory chips. At first glance this doesn't appear to help. The X 4 memory chips do not have separate Data-In and Data-Out pins (remember how the IIfx SIMM requires those?) They have one combined In/Out pin for each bit of their four bits of data, so only four data pins per X4 memory chip.

But there's soooooo much storage there. A single 128 MB 72 pin SIMM, which could be found on Ebay in 2006 for $5 - $20 (groups of eight and sixteen pulled from servers were not uncommon) has enough raw capacity for two sets of IIfx SIMMs plus another single 16 MB IIfx SIMM.

This is why I had two different circuit board designs for the IIfx SIMMs.

The first design was a conventional pins to pins design using eight 16M X 1 memory chips per SIMM. It's very straight-forward and there's nothing special there, except maybe squeezing it on two layers. I call this the "eight-chip IIfx SIMM" because it uses eight memory chips..

IIfx_Back.jpg.53b2fa368aa04b984ed8a8f4374c8557.jpg


Four more memory chips are on the back of each SIMM. I spaced them like that, four to a side to make hand soldering feasible.

The second design uses a pair of 16M X 4 memory chips and includes a pair of bidirectional switches and a gate with some additional wiring, to make it look like there are separate Data-In and Data-Out pins on the memory chips. Basically, I isolated the memory chip data pins from the IIfx data bus during Write operations. I call this the "two-chip IIfx SIMM" because it only uses two memory chips.

IIfx_Rev2_Front.jpg.fae5b26778354329d3438c3fdda2fde8.jpg


This allowed me to use the vaster number of 16M X 4 memory chips which are available, at the cost of a couple of bus switches and a five pin gate. It also reduces the total amount of soldering per SIMM. I wasn't certain exactly how to make it work, when I designed the SIMMs so there are pads on there for a variety of configurations. If you look at the back view photo, you'll see a couple of 0 ohm resistors in amongst an array of pads and a rework wire.

IIfx_Rev2_Back.jpg.a8bf550964454db75be1992f63bb94c3.jpg


If I was making new circuit boards, I'd modify the layout to do away with the resistors and wire, because now I know what works.

Anyway, that allowed me to convert the memory chips on a 128 MB 72 pin SIMM into nine 16 MB IIfx SIMMs. Which made the whole project economically feasible at the time.

Half my circuit boards were the simple design for 16M X 1 chips (eight chip design) and the other half used the 16M X 4 chips (two chip design), but the 128 MB SIMMs provided an 8 - 1 ratio of chips. So I still had a smallish problem. Somewhere along the way, I discovered that these DEC 54-24123-AA SIMMs are full of 16M X 1 chips:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/54-24123-AA-64MB-72-Pin-SIMM-/160829411246?pt=US_Memory_RAM_&hash=item25722e0fae

c0d3ef138b493ed22e938773abd9e8fc.jpeg.e73c8cf261e7d8104e81a5825209f0df.jpeg


They were and are about twice as expensive for the capacity you get, but that let me supply my 16M X 1 chip needs at an affordable price.

The last thing to know is that there's one odd bit of behaviour in the 2-chip SIMMs built with 16M X 4 chips. If one installs four of them in the IIfx, everything is great. They work fine. If one installs eight of them in a IIfx, the machine won't boot up. But, if one installs four of each type, that works fine, and I ultimately found that if one installs six of the 2-chip SIMMs and two of the 8-chip SIMMs in a certain configuration, then it works fine.

But it's a bizarre behaviour. The only thing I can think of is that using 16M X 4 memory chips, means that each 2-chip SIMM only has two memory chips instead of eight. So the current draw on the address/control lines is a lot lower than with 16M X 1 memory chips (eight chips per SIMM). Perhaps this low current draw is causing ringing on the address or control lines? Putting in a couple of SIMMs built with eight chips gets the current draw up high enough to reduce the ringing to a working level. Any other ideas?

 

CC_333

Well-known member
Hmm... Any chance you could produce a few more sets, Trag?

If I had $100, I'd totally buy a couple!

But 32 MB is fine for now, so no rush....

c

 

trag

Well-known member
Hmm... Any chance you could produce a few more sets, Trag?
Byrd nailed it. There is a chance I'll produce more sets, but there are so many other things in the way. It's been six years. Maybe I really will get this other stuff cleared and get back to it, but don't hold your breath. I still owe a nice fellow in Britain a pEX ROM too. So that has first priority. Wtih the decoding work we did here a year or two ago, I think the end of that project is straight-forward, but I just haven't gotten there yet either.

Just keeping up with my household's current computer support needs is eating all my work bench time these days.
 

uniserver

Well-known member
ok then lets make it easy on you then.

how many working pcb's do you have ready to go?

if i understand as long as you stick with one set of (4) simms to make 64 megs everything is fine?

if you buy a second set, for 128 megs, that is when you get some ringing in the lines and basically it doesn't work, with one of the current pcb designs?

but one of the other pcb designs will run fine with 8 simms. -- just trying to figure out what is sellable with what you have now.

maybe i can buy them from you and make the Simms?

or you can send them to me and I can send you a residual per sale?

if you don't have any more PCB's tell me who to call to have them make more.

I might need to go in this direction anyways. making PCB'S / 3D printing is going to be my natural progression of interest anyways.

pretty much i have quite a few consignment macs here from maceffects and zackl, and its looking more and more like i need to make a Ebay store.

just set the fixed price and let it go. - no time to deal with auction format.

 

IIfx

Well-known member
damEBlr.jpg.1826e430e44b2e09afdbf09e260cb4d0.jpg


I suppose I was lucky that my IIfx came with 81mb of RAM. Its a weird number...no virtual memory is on. :?:

They are great machines, the best part to me being how it does not lag up on simple operations like floppy disk read/write like other 68k macs.

Whenever I read about the original price of a IIfx, its unimaginable paying so much for a workstation.

 

zackl

Well-known member
Raising my hand for 128mb set for my IIFX

As Uni mentioned I actually have several working IIFX boards (and by several I think I have three)

Two of them reside in mac IIx cases

One resides in a (very dirty) IIfx case

I'm trying to figure out if best to sell them with or without the cases

And I've got one complete, beautiful IIfx that needs more ram

 

CelGen

Well-known member
I'd go for 32 or 64mb.

Why the hell do you need 128mb in an 030 machine? You would never use it.

 

uniserver

Well-known member
yeah that is what i was thinking…

even if all trag has is the PCB's that can only be installed as one set of 64….

as long as there is a disclaimer saying just install one set.

these are hand made and will not work with 2 sets installed… i think it would still sell. n/p

just given the rarity of this ram.

 
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