Can't Choose Mac OS 8 System Startup On PB1400c

[Snial]

Hi folks,

This is a weird issue. I have a PB1400c with a 750MB Partition allocated to System 7.5.3 (HFS) and about 6GB allocated to Mac OS 8.1 (HFS+). Earlier today I booted the PowerBook up into Mac OS 8.1, which was fine. Then, because I wanted to test a SCSI Apple 300i Plus CD ROM player, I used the Extensions Manager to swap out my PowerCD Extension and included the standard Apple CD Rom Driver.

When I rebooted, the PowerBook did a double-reboot and switched back to System 7.5.3.. I can select the Mac OS 8.1 partition from there, but on reboot it just went back to System 7.5.3. (with a single reboot). I then popped in a CF card in the PCMCIA slot, which also has 2 partitions: System 7.5.3 and Mac OS 8.1 (HFS+) and selected Mac OS 8.1 from there (which is possible); and again it did a double-reboot before ejecting the CF card and rebooting back into System 7.5.3.

I've tried resetting the parameter ram (Option+Cmd+P+R), it changed the time back to 12:04am so I think that worked, but it hasn't made any difference to the boot: System 7.5.3 is there, Mac OS 8.1 can be selected as the startup, but it won't boot into it. I can select System 7.5.3 on the CF card and boot from that. From there I tried to select Mac OS 8.1 on the CF card and it had the same effect: it got to the grey screen, then showed a blank floppy disk and then ejected the CF card and rebooted into System 7.5.3.

Any ideas?

-cheers from Julz

 

[LaPorta]

You could be a daredevil: pull the System file out of the 7.5.3, and restart. See what happens. Be sure to have a good, working startup floppy in case!

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

I remember having something like this happen (maybe not this exact thing?) and it was due to the system I was trying to boot off of being corrupted.

 

[Mk.558]

Try re-applying the 8.1 System Update. If that doesn't work you may have to reinstall the OS. Re-applying system updates works well on later versions of the Mac OS (particularly 10.2.8 and 10.4.11).

 

[Snial]

I remember having something like this happen (maybe not this exact thing?) and it was due to the system I was trying to boot off of being corrupted.

That's a possibility, but to me it doesn't explain why it first failed to boot from the internal ATA adapted microSD Mac OS 8.1 and then the same thing happened when I tried to do the same thing with the CF card that also has Mac OS 8.1 already installed. It's unlikely they were both corrupted.

 

[Snial]

Try re-applying the 8.1 System Update. If that doesn't work you may have to reinstall the OS. Re-applying system updates works well on later versions of the Mac OS (particularly 10.2.8 and 10.4.11).

Well, I can't do that either, because I would need to boot into Mac OS 8.1 to read the HFS+ partition.

I guess the deeper question is how does an early PowerPC Mac boot into Mac OS 8.1 on an HFS+ partition in the first place, when the ROM doesn't handle HFS+? Is there some kind of boot loader on the "Where have all my files gone?" wrapper partition?

-cheers from Julz

 

[LaPorta]

By the way, I wasn’t making a smart-Alec or jovial remark: seeing if it can start from anything with the 7.5.3 system taken out of the equation is something I’d do to force the issue and see what happens.

 

[Mk.558]

I'd boot into 9.2.2 on your mac mini G4, not sure how you've set that up, and use a USB - CF adapter to see what's up with it. If it was OK, I'd take another CF card and burn a new install of 8.1 onto it, then try that.

 

[Snial]

By the way, I wasn’t making a smart-Alec or jovial remark: seeing if it can start from anything with the 7.5.3 system taken out of the equation is something I’d do to force the issue and see what happens.

Well, I didn't think you were being a smart-alec, I just didn't think you'd tried it! Anyway, I've tried it now and sadly it doesn't work. I moved the System file in the ATA:microSD System 7.5.3 partition to a different folder to unbless it; set the CF Card's System 7.5.3 as the start-up disk; then ejected the CF and rebooted.

The PowerBook started to try to boot, but then stopped with a floppy disk '?' icon on the screen (or something like that). I then inserted the CF card and it found the System 7.5.3 on that.

So, I have another plan! I can install Mac OS 8.0 from CD to the CF Card's System 7.5.3 (that way, the normal ATA:microSD's 7.5.3 is the backup). Then I can use my Zip disk with the British Mac OS 8.1 updater on the CF Card's Mac OS 8.0 partition and then I should be able at least to see the HFS+ folders.

Installing Mac OS 8.0 right now. It's installing via my PowerCD, so it's pretty slow. I'll do another update when it's complete!

I'd boot into 9.2.2 on your mac mini G4, not sure how you've set that up, and use a USB - CF adapter to see what's up with it. If it was OK, I'd take another CF card and burn a new install of 8.1 onto it, then try that.

I don't yet have Mac OS 9.2.2 on my Mac mini G4, I plan to though.

 

[Mk.558]

I don't yet have Mac OS 9.2.2 on my Mac mini G4, I plan to though.

It's a good backup, it does run fairly quick. However you can't use bluetooth/wifi (i only use Ethernet), sound is fixed at a certain volume (some people use USB sound dongles), you can only boot through it through the Option boot menu, RAM Disk through the Memory control panel doesn't work (I just use App Disk instead)...but it works great for me as I don't depend on OS 9 that much but takes up way less space than the iMac G4 it replaced.

I'm curious though, what do you use Mac OS 8.1 on a 1400 for? I generally like to use the lowest OS system I can get away with on 68K/early PPC systems for speed reasons.

 

[3lectr1cPPC]

I main 8.5 on my 3400c and my 1400c. It's a compromise between software support mainly for me, plus I just like the Platinum styling.
Both for me are also quad-booted though, with 7.6.1, 8.1, 8.5, and 9.1.

 

[Snial]

<snip> Installing Mac OS 8.0 right now. It's installing via my PowerCD, so it's pretty slow. I'll do another update when it's complete!

OK, so I can boot into Mac OS 8.0 on the CF card. It updated the drivers, but I wasn't able to boot into Mac OS 8.1 on the other CF card partition.

I don't yet have Mac OS 9.2.2 on my Mac mini G4, I plan to though.

It's a good backup, it does run fairly quickly. <snip> can't use bluetooth/wifi (i only use Ethernet), sound is fixed <snip> Option boot menu, RAM Disk through the Memory control panel doesn't <snip>

Those limitations are fine with me, my limitation is getting around to installing it!

I'm curious though, what do you use Mac OS 8.1 on a 1400 for? I generally like to use the lowest OS system I can get away with on 68K/early PPC systems for speed reasons.

I run System 7.1P on my LC II (actually a Performa 400) and 7.0.3 (I think) on my Mac Plus. I'd run 7.5.x on any 68040 Mac; System 3 or 4 on a 512KB Mac and System 6 on any Mac with <4MB of RAM (though the thread on porting 6.0.8L to other models is really interesting).

My 'rationale' is similar to @3lectr1cPPC 's; I'm after a balance between performance, features, convenience and size.

Mac OS 8.1 runs quickly enough on my PB1400 for my liking, nippy enough not to feel like it's holding me back, whereas on a performa 630, it really is sluggish, like 7.5 is on a Mac Plus. There are some features in 8.1 I really love: HFS+ for really large drives; better multitasking; much better Virtual Memory handling on PPC code; the look and feel is more modern and less flat; desktop pictures and large patterns; much more PPC code (so some things will be faster) and I ended up preferring click-down menus instead of pull-down menus.

The deeper reason is that Mac OS 8.x represents the next era for Mac OS, importantly it was the beginning of hope as we escaped from the morass of System 7.5.x (though 7.6 is a bit of a bridge, and I've never used it, not even on the PB1400). Sure, there's still a substantial amount of 68K code, but it's the era where PowerPC takes centre stage and we see the glimmers of the next big leap into Mac OS X.

I missed out on 8.5 and 8.6, because I went straight from my PB5300 running 8.1 to a tangerine iBook running 9.0.4 (and then 9.1). My next iBook ran 9.2 + Mac OS X 10.1 (a bit) before 10.2 arrived and then Mac OS X became my default.

The deepest reason though is that I used Mac OS 8.1 on my PowerMac 4400/160 and PB5300/100 to complete my MPhil in Computer Architecture at Manchester Uni, UK. So, it reminds me of happy times and academic achievements .

 

[Mk.558]

Fair enough.

My only recommendation re: 9.2.2 on the mac mini G4, is to put it on a 2GiB volume so that way A) should you have to reinstall it, it's not a hassle to the rest of your system (in the past, I'd put 10.4.11 on one partition, and 10.2.8 + 9.2.2 on the other) but most importantly B) it's compatible with systems that do not like volume sizes larger than 2GiB. I didn't do that when I did mine, I did a 40GiB Tiger volume and a 120GiB 9.2.2 + archive repository -- which ugh...yeah, I didn't think that through right...

 

[MacUp72]

I had similar boot problems tinkering with just installing extensions of the 3com Etherlink III card on my 1400c..as soon as the drivers were installed it just wouldnt boot into 9.1 anymore just straight into the second 8.5 partition.
I then learned that to always have a backup copy of the system folder ( renaming it system folder bk) on the 9.1 system. When any install problem occurs and it boots into 8.5 again, I just can delete the old non-booting system folder and rename the backup of the other partition, it always works.

 

[Snial]

Problem Solved!

Fair enough...

I had similar boot problems <snip> 3com Etherlink III card on my 1400c..as soon as the drivers were installed it just wouldnt boot into 9.1 anymore just straight into the second 8.5 partition.
I then learned that to always have a backup copy of the system folder ( renaming it system folder bk) on the 9.1 system. When any install problem occurs and it boots into 8.5 again, I just can delete the old non-booting system folder and rename the backup of the other partition, it always works.

OK, so I think I have a similar solution then. I installed Mac OS 8.0 on an HFS volume on the CF card last evening and this morning I located my British Mac OS 8.1 update and installed that (updating the drivers on all volumes). Then I could see the HFS+ volumes and also boot into Mac OS 8.1 on the internal ATA:microSD.

Great! At last I'm back where I started before I started messing with the standard CD ROM extension! And also I have a version of Mac OS 8.1 installed on an HFS partition on the CF card, which I'm hoping will be bootable if ever the Mac OS 8.1 partition becomes unbeatable again (I still don't know what caused the problem).

Thanks for the help, @Mk.558 , @3lectr1cPPC , @LaPorta , @MacUp72 !

-cheers from Julz