Apple III- Is it Worth It?

[Concorde1993]

I am in the process of purchasing an Apple III (not a III+) for about $50. I was supposed to pickup the computer last Saturday, however the seller was unavailable, and I had to go to work in the morning.

From the picture that was sent to me from the seller, and a brief description of the problems with it, I am at a crossroads as to whether I should even bother continuing to pursue such a venture. I realize that the III was produced in limited quantities (due to its well-known failures), but I must take into account possible repair costs, and hunting down parts.

Here is an excerpt from a recent message the seller sent me:

Hi Paul,

I tested the Apple III today but I have no disks for it. It seemed to run ram diagnostics and then reset and run them over and over so I have no idea if it is working properly or not. Also there are a few keys missing.

Assuming if the seller's diagnostic is correct, can this III be salvaged? I still have to see the computer upfront, and do the usual inspection.

Thoughts?

 

[Osgeld]

its not "that" rare, its sorta junky and currently broken, I wouldnt

 

[Dennis Nedry]

Try negotiating. It seems a little high for the problems it has. I know I'd pay $30 in that state, maybe $50 if I was pretty sure I could fix it.

 

[david__schmidt]

Hi Paul,

I tested the Apple III today but I have no disks for it. It seemed to run ram diagnostics and then reset and run them over and over so I have no idea if it is working properly or not. Also there are a few keys missing.

Thoughts?

The repeated diagnostics is bad. It should stop and hunt for a disk in the drive, and stop with "RETRY" on the screen. It's finding something wrong. On the other hand... all of these machines need TLC to keep them running. You would need to pull and reseat all the chips to make sure they're all making a good connection. That cures 98% of failures. The keyboard, on the other hand... that's much harder to fix.

Talk him down due to the diagnostics being bad. And, if you weren't aware of the keys before... talk him down some more because of them. None is critical to operation (caps lock, the number on the keypad), though.

Edit: I see one of the keys on home row looks broken too... this machine's lived a hard life.

 

[Concorde1993]

Try negotiating. It seems a little high for the problems it has. I know I'd pay $30 in that state, maybe $50 if I was pretty sure I could fix it.

I advised the seller I would pay $25 for the III in its "as-is" condition. He disagreed with the offer, stating that he would "not give-up" the machine for that amount. I advised him I would pay $50 if he was able to find software disks for the III, and any other documentation, like the owner's manual (although I can download that from apple3.org), or even the original box (he is the original owner, BTW). According to the seller, this III was used in an engineering lab during the most part of the 80s, then placed in storage for 20+ years. Last week was the first time he turned it on to advise me what the operating condition of the unit was.

The repeated diagnostics is bad. It should stop and hunt for a disk in the drive, and stop with "RETRY" on the screen. It's finding something wrong. On the other hand... all of these machines need TLC to keep them running. You would need to pull and reseat all the chips to make sure they're all making a good connection. That cures 98% of failures. The keyboard, on the other hand... that's much harder to fix.

Thanks for the info. If, and when I do get to see this unit upfront, I will open it up to check the innards. There's probably a monsoon of dust in the cabinet. If the board is good (in the sense there are no cracks, or charring), then I will consider recapping. I figured that the RAM chips had just passed their expiry date after 30 years. Come to think of it, this computer probably overheated, and the chips have expanded overtime.

Unfortunately, this fellow claims he no longer has the boot disks for the III, which makes things a lot more difficult. However, if this III is not worth the time upon inspection, he's also got a IIc, and some other vintage computers as well, so I will look into that.

 

[Gorgonops]

I advised the seller I would pay $25 for the III in its "as-is" condition. He disagreed with the offer, stating that he would "not give-up" the machine for that amount.

Personally, I'd let the guy keep it if he treasures it that much, unless you simply *must* have an Apple /// to satisfy some deep craving in the darkest recesses of your soul. Save it for someone who already has a ///, already loves them, and needs it for parts.

How well do you know this guy when it comes to the stories he's telling? My guess is that "this III was used in an engineering lab during the most part of the 80s, then placed in storage for 20+ years" translates to: "I bought this off a pallet at the local government surplus sale and it's been sitting in a rented storage unit until I could get around to hosing it off and foisting it off on a sucker. I never *had* any manuals or disks, and a sticker on the back *said* it came from 'a lab'."

 

[Concorde1993]

I don't know this guy from atom, hence why I am going to see this unit upfront before I purchase it (if I happen to do that). I just want to find out if this unit can be salvaged before heading out to this guy's place. I realize he could be full of shit (excuse the French), and I am well aware of the consequences of purchasing used equipment (I have purchased 2 compacts, a Performa & an eMate 300 online. Out of the 4, only 1 does not work). However, this unit clearly has been through some hell, and the seller was honest enough to advise me beforehand what the issues are, without having to find out one I got there. I would figure at this stage in the game there is some trust in my conversations with this individual.

And yes, I would ultimately like to obtain the III. Who wouldn't want a rare piece of Apple history to add to their collection?

 

[david__schmidt]

Unfortunately, this fellow claims he no longer has the boot disks for the III, which makes things a lot more difficult.

Not necessarily. If you have any other Apple II equipment, you can just create your own replica boot disks. The disk images are on apple3.org, and the disk transfer software (ADT or ADTPro) will connect between the Apple II and the modern computer. But even armed with boot diskettes... until you get past the POST diagnostic, it's not going to attempt to boot a disk anyway.

 

[Concorde1993]

I only have one Apple II disk in my collection, which is AppleWorks 2.0 (1987 edition). My grandfather, way back in 1978, purchased an Apple II computer, and used it when he was department head for moderns at his high school. As the story goes, he sold it in the late 80s, and went the way of the Commodore PC 10-III, which he purchased for himself, and my second-cousin (my second-cousin allowed me to keep his as he no longer has a use for it; my grandfather's is no longer among us). As a result, whatever software/programs he wrote, and purchased during that span of time was either thrown out, or sold (I still have a vast majority of his Commodore disks, however, which were designed for the PC 10-III system). Besides the one Apple II disk, I have the owner's manual for the 5.25" external floppy. That's about it.

That fellow who is selling the Apple III was also selling a II+, which is what I was originally interested in purchasing for $60, and it came with software disks, two floppy drives, an original Apple monitor, joystick, manuals, etc. Unfortunately, I was not quick enough to obtain it. The seller informed me that he had other computers, and that is how the Apple III came into discussion (he said he also had a Lisa, but he cannot find it. :?: )

I saw the disk images on Apple3.org (a great website, BTW). How would I go about transferring the disk image from a June 2010 MacBook Pro to a 1980 Apple III? I doubt I still have blank 5.25" disks lying around.

 

[david__schmidt]

I only have one Apple II disk in my collection, which is AppleWorks 2.0 (1987 edition). [...] Besides the one Apple II disk, I have the owner's manual for the 5.25" external floppy. That's about it.

Ah, you need more than a disk... you need an Apple II and a disk drive.

(he said he also had a Lisa, but he cannot find it. :?: )

Wouldn't that be fun?

I saw the disk images on Apple3.org (a great website, BTW). How would I go about transferring the disk image from a June 2010 MacBook Pro to a 1980 Apple III? I doubt I still have blank 5.25" disks lying around.

Well, you would need to find or buy some Single or Double Sided/Double Density (DS/DD) not High Density (HD) floppies. Then, with a serial cable in hand, you can bootstrap the III and transfer disk transfer software to it, then transfer more disks. The process is outlined here:

http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/bootstrap3.html

 

[jsarchibald]

I am consistently amazed at the low prices you guys pay over there for a machine. We have to pay hundreds to get an older system, something like that over here would easily sell for $100. I saw a seller recently list a IIGS and a IIc, with original documentation, drives and disks, and they each went for well over $500.

 

[Concorde1993]

Well, you would need to find or buy some Single or Double Sided/Double Density (DS/DD) not High Density (HD) floppies.

I've got a whole bunch of blank 800k floppies, in addition to an external Apple 800k disk drive, which I use for my Plus.

Thanks for the info. At this point, I am more concerned about those faulty chips. Assuming I purchase the III, I will attempt this. There's probably an unwanted Apple II lying around at my high school. I received a working Amiga 2000HD from one of the guys at the ICT department, so anything is possible if I put the word out.

 

[Concorde1993]

I am consistently amazed at the low prices you guys pay over there for a machine. We have to pay hundreds to get an older system, something like that over here would easily sell for $100. I saw a seller recently list a IIGS and a IIc, with original documentation, drives and disks, and they each went for well over $500.

I am a hobbyist, not a lunatic. Besides, assuming I do get this III, I will probably have to look around for parts, which is more time, and money. If this were a fully functional system, with all of the peripherals included, then yes I would have to pay a premium. But this III looks like hell spat it out, so...

 

[david__schmidt]

I've got a whole bunch of blank 800k floppies, in addition to an external Apple 800k disk drive, which I use for my Plus.

That may well be, but they won't help your III any. ;-)

so anything is possible if I put the word out.

That's true - and can lead to much greater accumulation of ancient hardware at low-low prices.

 

[Concorde1993]

That may well be, but they won't help your III any. ;-)

Yes, that's right. When you said DD/DS floppies, I thought about the 3.5", not the 5.25".

Would an Apple SC20 drive, with a 5.25" Seagate drive work? I realize that these units are pre-SCSI, but I am thinking of other possibilities. I don't have access to a Profile drive (I have never even seen one personally), and I doubt that seller has one either. Again, if I do get the III, would a connection between a Plus, and a III be possible to transfer files, or am I going over my head?

 

[david__schmidt]

Would an Apple SC20 drive, with a 5.25" Seagate drive work?

Nope.

I don't have access to a Profile drive (I have never even seen one personally), and I doubt that seller has one either.

That's ok... it doesn't really matter. The only thing that the III can boot from is the internal floppy disk drive.

Again, if I do get the III, would a connection between a Plus, and a III be possible to transfer files, or am I going over my head?

I don't know of any software that is amenable to data transfer between the III and the old Mac crowd. Well, there is MacADT that does the usual .DSK transfers, now that I think of it.

 

[Dog Cow]

Well, there is MacADT that does the usual .DSK transfers, now that I think of it.

I use that on a Mac Classic sometimes. Interesting tip, though slightly off-topic: the Mac Classic's 8 Mhz 68000 microprocessor (or serial ports; I have no idea which) is not fast enough to handle 19,200 baud. One must set it to one setting lower in order to get successful transfers to/from the Apple IIe.

 

[Concorde1993]

That's ok... it doesn't really matter. The only thing that the III can boot from is the internal floppy disk drive.

Really? I am assuming then the III would require some sort of software driver then to access data on a Profile drive.

I would like to hear more about MacADT, just for personal reference.

 

[david__schmidt]

That's exactly right. All devices needed a device driver to communicate. Console, Floppy, and some combination of serial or parallel printer were fairly standard. Profile drivers were pretty common too. You can use the System Config Program on the Utilities disk to move drivers onto and off of the boot diskette.

I would like to hear more about MacADT, just for personal reference.

It's basically the same server as the 2000's era DOS ADT server, except it knows how to control Mac serial ports under Classic Mac OS. Nothing fancy; it can only transfer 5.25" .dsk images. But of course that's all you need for the III. You can download the MacADT program from the ADTPro download site, under dos-adt. It's buried within that package as MacADT.sit.