Apple II+ Question

[khannonnd]

Just acquired an Apple II+ today along with a Disk II.  I posted these questions in my conquest thread, but I figured it made sense to post them here too:

When I tried to load a couple of games, it said that it could not run them because the diskette required 64k of RAM.  I was confused by this because this Apple II plus has the language card in it and therefore HAS 64k of RAM.  Also one of the games (Oregon Trail) is one that I see all sorts of Apple II+s running on Youtube..

Also, sometimes when I turn on the power to the machine, the disk II's red light turns on and it sounds like it is working (whether there is a disk in there or not) and it never does anything....  When it does this, even the reset button doesn't do anything.  

Thanks!

 

[david__schmidt]

Sounds like there are some things to work out on that machine.  It may have a language card, but it might not be connected properly (some have a jumper ribon cable that reaches down to the RAM area on the motherboard).  Does yours?  Is it seated properly?  A picture would be a good idea here.

The drive should start up, seek, and rattle against the track 0 stop a bit, then settle in to a quiet spin until/unless it finds a disk to boot or you hit (ctrl) reset.  If you're hitting ctrl-reset and it's not resetting, something is terribly wrong.  If you're not hitting ctrl along with reset, that's the problem.

 

[Gorgonops]

I wonder if a moderator could somehow merge the responses to this thread with the ones on the conquest thread. (Snip those out and paste them over here?)

 

[Elfen]

Try the Apple without the Language card and see how it boots. But note this:

There are 9 RAM Chips on the Language card, while (3 rows of) 8 on the board. How is this? The 9th chip, is from the logic board. When you install the Language card, you remove the last chip on the last row and put it in the blank socket on the language card and the jumper cable from the logic board to the language card. When you remove the Language Card, you must remove the 9th RAM Chip from the Language card and put it back into the Logic Board. Then you will have a full 48K Apple II/II+; without it, you will only have a 32K Apple II/II+

 

[khannonnd]

The language card appears to be fit in properly (I removed it and the ram chip it uses to plug into the machine) and replugged them in.  Picture attached.

I will try to take a video of it booting with my ADTPro disk to show you what it does (it just kind of freezes).

 

[Gorgonops]

As I suggested in the other thread the DOS 3.3 Master disk is a good one to use because it will actually throw up a message on the screen saying it's loading Integer Basic into the card on the first boot, and then once you're at a command prompt you can try switching languages between "INT" (for Integer) and "FP" (Floating Point, aka, Applesoft.) Running some simple programs in Integer basic (assuming it gets that far) might give you some idea if the problem is the RAM on the card.

 

[khannonnd]

Ok here is a video of what it does with "Oregon Trail."  You'll see at first it says 64k needed.  Than I restart and it tries to load it but freezes on the welcoming screen and then the disk drive stops spinning.  I am able to reset the machine (silly me did not know you had to do "control reset") but it either tells me again that 64k of RAM is needed or it tries to load it and it freezes.

The video is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B586B2iTIx9_UC1QbHhnZGRzems/view?usp=sharing (I got it down to a 9MB video)

The ADTPro video is located here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B586B2iTIx9_Wkpkd0dXZHQ0WFU/view?usp=sharing

It goes to the screen you see and then does nothing.  Ctrl-Reset brings up some kind of prompt below that screen.  The sound in the background is my wife spraying something, haha.  Pardon the poor first person filming.  

 

[khannonnd]

As I suggested in the other thread the DOS 3.3 Master disk is a good one to use because it will actually throw up a message on the screen saying it's loading Integer Basic into the card on the first boot, and then once you're at a command prompt you can try switching languages between "INT" (for Integer) and "FP" (Floating Point, aka, Applesoft.) Running some simple programs in Integer basic (assuming it gets that far) might give you some idea if the problem is the RAM on the card.

I will make a DOS 3.3 Master disk this evening and give it a try.  Thanks for all of your help!

 

[khannonnd]

So I tried loading the DOS 3.3 disk.  In the Apple IIc I have, it gives me the "loading Integer Basic" prompt.  In the II+, it does nothing.  It just spins the disk over and over, but the screen only reads "Apple II"...  I tried moving the disk controller card into slot 7, to see if there was a problem with the disk connection, but still the same thing.

I wonder if the problem is with either the disk card or disk II drive?  I purchased backups of both on eBay, so I will be able to test those when I get them...

 

[khannonnd]

Same thing with the "APTest" program.  Works on the IIc and I can run various diagnostics, but the II+ doesn't seem to do anything...

 

[Gorgonops]

I would venture it's time to remove the language card and see it it'll be a 48k Apple II. Remember, you have to move that RAM chip from the card to the board where the cable is plugged in.

 

[khannonnd]

I would venture it's time to remove the language card and see it it'll be a 48k Apple II. Remember, you have to move that RAM chip from the card to the board where the cable is plugged in.

Got it.  Which RAM chip on the card comes off and is there a trick to removing it?  None of them *look* removable...

 

[khannonnd]

Never mind, I figured it out and got it off.

But then I was an idiot and I am fairly sure put the chip on the board backwards.  I turned the machine on, heard a pop, the screen was all garbled, and the ram chip I replaced was HOT.

So... what did I kill by my stupidity

 

[khannonnd]

Switched the RAM chip direction, and it turned on fine to the "Apple ][" on the top of the screen.  Machine seems to be doing the same thing.  Disk just spins and spins and spins and CTRL-RESET doesn't do anything.  If I cut the power and turn it back on, I get a garbled screen, the disk drive constantly spins, and CTRL-REST doesn't work.

 

[Gorgonops]

You probably did indeed let the magic smoke out of that RAM chip. Live and learn.

If you're near Santa Clara last I checked Anchor Electronics carried 4116's. (I know I have a set of them in a tube myself somewhere.) Starting to think maybe this thing needs some more detailed poking.

If you pull the disk controller do you get a functional Applesoft prompt? I THINK the II ROM has enough of a self test to come up as a 32k machine with that chip missing.

 

[khannonnd]

You probably did indeed let the magic smoke out of that RAM chip. Live and learn.

If you're near Santa Clara last I checked Anchor Electronics carried 4116's. (I know I have a set of them in a tube myself somewhere.) Starting to think maybe this thing needs some more detailed poking.

If you pull the disk controller do you get a functional Applesoft prompt? I THINK the II ROM has enough of a self test to come up as a 32k machine with that chip missing.

Yes, without the disk controller I get the prompt (and the machine worked once I put that RAM chip in the right way.  When it was in the wrong way, it got HOT, lol).  I also get the prompt when the disk controller and disk II are installed (but without a disk put in)

 

[khannonnd]

So I did finally get it to load the ApTest program (the manual for which I found here: http://www.callapple.org/Members/soft/apple2/inhouse/ApTest.pdf) -- both when I had the RAM chip I may have broken installed and it taken out or the language card installed.  

With the potentially killed RAM chip installed, it passed the 48k RAM test.  The Disk Interface test also passed.

When I ran either the language card test or the "Integer ROM test," I got "ERR $D000" and that's it.

Does this mean one of the ROM chips is toast?  If so does that mean the board is no good?

 

[Gorgonops]

Failing the Integer Rom test would be expected behavior running a II+ without a language card. The difference between a plain II and a IIplus is, hardware revisions and stickers aside, that a Plus has AppleSoft ROMs in the onboard sockets while a II has Integer. (One of the functions of the language card is to enable a Plus to load Integer BASIC into the supplied RAM and switch it over the motherboard ROMs; without the card a Plus is incompatible with a fairly sizeable body of old II software.)

So... this is actually really encouraging, if the diagnostic is to be believed you have a working 48k Plus. The one hesitation I get is that didn't you say the system refused to boot DOS 3.3 without the language card installed?

 

[khannonnd]

Failing the Integer Rom test would be expected behavior running a II+ without a language card. The difference between a plain II and a IIplus is, hardware revisions and stickers aside, that a Plus has AppleSoft ROMs in the onboard sockets while a II has Integer. (One of the functions of the language card is to enable a Plus to load Integer BASIC into the supplied RAM and switch it over the motherboard ROMs; without the card a Plus is incompatible with a fairly sizeable body of old II software.)

So... this is actually really encouraging, if the diagnostic is to be believed you have a working 48k Plus. The one hesitation I get is that didn't you say the system refused to boot DOS 3.3 without the language card installed?

Hm.  I don't recall.  I will try it now.  For some reason the APTest also wouldn't load in the past, but last night it did.  I am not sure what I did to change it, but who knows.  I shall report back shortly!