ANS 500 Rom

[Big Ben]

Hello,

I recently acquired an ANS 500 in a pretty rough shape, but with some rust fix and cleaning it should be fine.

Unfortunatly, there was no cd drive, hard drive, and RAM/ROM sticks.

As far as have seen, the ROM stick seems to be mandatory.

Can a kind soul with an AWS 500 confirm this, and share the ROM strick P/N so I may track on of these? (Looks like the graal quest)

Thanks!

 

[absurd_engineering]

I've reached out to a friend who has an ANS, and he'll get me the ROM part number.

I've also checked the 1066-page Module Identification Guide (and the European supplement) and it suggests that the ROM SIMM for the ANS 500/700 was not offered as a separate line item. Instead, the ROM SIMM was considered part of the logic board (661-1125).

 

[Phipli]

I've reached out to a friend who has an ANS, and he'll get me the ROM part number.

I've also checked the 1066-page Module Identification Guide (and the European supplement) and it suggests that the ROM SIMM for the ANS 500/700 was not offered as a separate line item. Instead, the ROM SIMM was considered part of the logic board (661-1125).

View attachment 68540

How many pins are on the ROM SIMM?

 

[absurd_engineering]

How many pins are on the ROM SIMM?

I'll ask.

 

[Big Ben]

Thanks for asking!

Yes, in the service manual there is no part number for the ROM.

It seems to be the same as the 9500/9600 format but with 8 chips, unfortunatly the only picture I found was to bad to see anything.
(The ROM simm format seems to be the same across every Mac with this kind of slot).

I tried to track down some info about this but, there is not much…

 

[Phipli]

Thanks for asking!

Yes, in the service manual there is no part number for the ROM.

It seems to be the same as the 9500/9600 format but with 8 chips, unfortunatly the only picture I found was to bad to see anything.
(The ROM simm format seems to be the same across every Mac with this kind of slot).

I tried to track down some info about this but, there is not much…

If it is a standard style PPC ROM, perhaps you could make one.

Is there a copy of the ROM contents online anywhere?

 

[Big Ben]

Found none so far… but it’s likely that my only solution is to find a dump and make a repro (which is out of my capabilities) . Unless someone has one from a dead ANS.

 

[GRudolf94]

ANS are architecturally almost the same as a 9500/9600, and the ROM modules are electrically the same as in any PPC Mac. That doesn't help any, however, because the AIX-only ROM in the ANS is specific to those machines. It might be feasible to modify a regular Mac module with chips other than the default maskROMs, but a dump would be necessary.

 

[Phipli]

ANS are architecturally almost the same as a 9500/9600, and the ROM modules are electrically the same as in any PPC Mac. That doesn't help any, however, because the AIX-only ROM in the ANS is specific to those machines. It might be feasible to modify a regular Mac module with chips other than the default maskROMs, but a dump would be necessary.

There is an open SIMM design out in the long grass somewhere for the PCI macs. It has been discussed more for the Beige G3s and Power Express machines (the G3s are 3.3V, but the form factor and pinout is the same).

Biggest issue seems to be nobody has a ROM dump from one. That and getting someone to flash and assemble the parts.

 

[Big Ben]

Yes the ROM dump is probably the trickiest part.

I might be able to build a ROM module if I can find a already designed PCB and the proper EEPROM.

Here is what I already find so far:

http://sphinxgroup.org/Apple_pinouts/Firmware_Module_Pinout.txt

Upgrading the ROM of a PM9600.

So I have a PowerMac 9600 that has a ROM slot, presumably if Apple ever wanted to update the 4MB Boot ROM for these machines and the other Old World Mac's that had the ROM Slot they just needed a ROM Upgrade SIMM. It looks like the Beige G3 ROM SIMM is Pin compatible, so maybe someone that has...

68kmla.org

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/pex-rom-project.23568/post-417205

http://www.erik.co.uk/ans/HardwareDevNotes.pdf

ROM is at address 0xFF000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF

So there must be a way to dump the ROM from the AIX shell into a file with some command line.

 

[jajan547]

Well you're in luck. The apple part number for the ROM Simm for ANS 500/700 is 341-0833. There's actually one available here for 36 Euros as well as multiple spare parts.

ROM, ANS, xs4trade - Apple Vintage Parts & Accessories

www.xs4trade.net

 

[Big Ben]

Whoa! Thanks!

 

[absurd_engineering]

Yes the ROM dump is probably the trickiest part.

I might be able to build a ROM module if I can find a already designed PCB and the proper EEPROM.

Here is what I already find so far:

http://sphinxgroup.org/Apple_pinouts/Firmware_Module_Pinout.txt

Upgrading the ROM of a PM9600.

So I have a PowerMac 9600 that has a ROM slot, presumably if Apple ever wanted to update the 4MB Boot ROM for these machines and the other Old World Mac's that had the ROM Slot they just needed a ROM Upgrade SIMM. It looks like the Beige G3 ROM SIMM is Pin compatible, so maybe someone that has...

68kmla.org

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/pex-rom-project.23568/post-417205

http://www.erik.co.uk/ans/HardwareDevNotes.pdf

ROM is at address 0xFF000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF

So there must be a way to dump the ROM from the AIX shell into a file with some command line.

Here's a photo of my friend's ANS ROM. These are the only identifying marks.

He would be up for dumping the ROM if someone can come up with the AIX command(s) to do so.

 

[absurd_engineering]

There is an open SIMM design out in the long grass somewhere for the PCI macs. It has been discussed more for the Beige G3s and Power Express machines (the G3s are 3.3V, but the form factor and pinout is the same).

Biggest issue seems to be nobody has a ROM dump from one. That and getting someone to flash and assemble the parts.

Could the ROM map be extracted from a complete dump, as triggered by AIX sysdumpstart ?

HW - DUMP

Practical Guide to AIX and its related IBM techonologies, like PowerVM, PowerVC, PowerHA, HMC etc.

aix4admins.blogspot.com

 

[Big Ben]

Thanks!
System dumps are a different thing, as far as I know it’s not able to do a ROM dump.

I’ll try to find a command compatible with AIX, so we can dump the ROM.

Just ordered mine yesterday, but it will took sonme time before I could get the ANS back to life.

I’m wondering if there is different ROM versions and how close it is from a Mac one. I know the toolbox is removed from that one.

 

[absurd_engineering]

Thanks!
System dumps are a different thing, as far as I know it’s not able to do a ROM dump.

I’ll try to find a command compatible with AIX, so we can dump the ROM.

Just ordered mine yesterday, but it will took sonme time before I could get the ANS back to life.

I’m wondering if there is different ROM versions and how close it is from a Mac one. I know the toolbox is removed from that one.

Wouldn't the ROM be present in the system dump in 0xFF000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF?

 

[absurd_engineering]

Thanks!
System dumps are a different thing, as far as I know it’s not able to do a ROM dump.

I’ll try to find a command compatible with AIX, so we can dump the ROM.

Just ordered mine yesterday, but it will took sonme time before I could get the ANS back to life.

I’m wondering if there is different ROM versions and how close it is from a Mac one. I know the toolbox is removed from that one.

Here's a ROM from a stock ANS, btw.

 

[Big Ben]

Wouldn't the ROM be present in the system dump in 0xFF000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF?

No, a system dump is a partial or complete copy of the RAM not the whole address space (that would be huge).

The ROM maybe cached in the RAM but I have absolutly no knowledge about this.

 

[absurd_engineering]

No, a system dump is a partial or complete copy of the RAM not the whole address space (that would be huge).
The ROM maybe cached in the RAM but I have absolutly no knowledge about this.

Per the ANS 500 developers' guide, ROM should be addressable in that range. I don't know if the full firmware-assisted AIX sysdump will include it, though.

Should be possible to dump ROM from OF in any case:

0 > 100000 0 do ffc00000 i 4 * + dup 3f and 0= if dup cr 8 u.r ." :" then @ 8 u.r loop

I'll see if my friend can do that.

 

[trag]

Yes the ROM dump is probably the trickiest part.

I might be able to build a ROM module if I can find a already designed PCB and the proper EEPROM.

Here is what I already find so far:

http://sphinxgroup.org/Apple_pinouts/Firmware_Module_Pinout.txt

Upgrading the ROM of a PM9600.

So I have a PowerMac 9600 that has a ROM slot, presumably if Apple ever wanted to update the 4MB Boot ROM for these machines and the other Old World Mac's that had the ROM Slot they just needed a ROM Upgrade SIMM. It looks like the Beige G3 ROM SIMM is Pin compatible, so maybe someone that has...

68kmla.org

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/pex-rom-project.23568/post-417205

http://www.erik.co.uk/ans/HardwareDevNotes.pdf

ROM is at address 0xFF000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF

So there must be a way to dump the ROM from the AIX shell into a file with some command line.

Starting about here: https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/pex-rom-project.23568/post-269509
is some discussion of the difficulty in converting from a software dump of the ROM to actual files that go on chips.

We solved the issue, as you'll see if you read a handful of posts further in from there.

The NuBus PowerMacs, Catalyst family (7200), PowerSurge family (x500/x600), ANS, never released 9700/pEX, and the Beige G3 all use the same **hardware** firmware module. The code that goes on that modules changes with the Apple family, which should be obvious.

I'm not sure if there were different production versions of the ANS ROM, but there was definitely at least one special ANS ROM. There was a dual CPU processor board that made it into the wild and it was used with a modified ROM. I think someone in Germany had it, but I'm not sure. That was so long ago.

The lack of Mac ToolBox routines is not the only bar to the ANS running Mac OS. The mapping of interrupts on the ANS is very different from on the PowerMac. So if you try to run the Mac OS on an ANS, at some point, probably at boot time, an interrupt is gonna get issued, the software is going to load what it thinks is the right interrupt handler, but it will be for a completely different piece of hardware, and the interrupt will never get properly handled and released.